PastryScoop Chocolate Chat Series

Robert Steinberg of Scharffen Berger Chocolate Maker
January 26, 2005

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Hi and welcome to our chat today! I'm thrilled to introduce Dr. Robert Steinberg from Scharffen Berger Chocolate Maker as our special guest today.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Any questions for Robert to start?

<dianna555> Any advice on tempering chocolate?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> It's a little complicated to explain in this sort of forum, but I think most importantly is to think of tempering as building cocoa butter crystals. That takes time, mixing, and temperature control. What most people seem to forget is the fact that it takes time to build crystals. A difference of 1 to 2 degrees could make a difference in tempering. After a while you should learn how to judge good temper by appearance.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Dianna, you can watch a streaming video demonstration on how to temper chocolate on PastryScoop.com. Just visit our “How To's” section.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Robert, we had the good fortune of touring your new Manhattan shop a few weeks ago. It's wonderful! And we got to sample your new handmade truffles too. I especially loved the one with cocoa nibs.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> Thanks for the comment about the truffles. What most appeals to me about them is the fact we can use our chocolate in new ways. It sort of closes the circle of making chocolate.

<pastry57> Is it possible to rescue chocolate that has been abused? I have some chocolate that was exposed to moisture in the air and when I attempted to temper it, it melted but was thick. Can I do something to the chocolate to be able to use it?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Moisture is chocolate's enemy. That's a tough one. For fine chocolate work, I would suggest starting over but you can still use the chocolate for recipes where the chocolate is baked such as brownies.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> Tempering chocolate that has moisture in it is impossible, but of course you can use it in recipes that otherwise call for liquid in some form.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Don't let that chocolate go to waste!

<pastry57> Thanks!

<luca> When adding melted chocolate (with butter cooled to room temperature) to an egg and sugar mixture that was mixed for four minutes, should the chocolate fall to the bottom? My cake did not rise (egg whites were folded in before putting in pan).

<Raina_PastryScoop> I've made a cake like that before and not had that problem. If you mix the egg yolks and sugar thoroughly, you should build up enough structure so that the chocolate won't sink.

<luca> I have too. This time it went right to the bottom. Maybe too much too fast?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> It sounds as though the chocolate added to the recipe described above wasn't mixed in well. Is it possible it was too warm when you added it?

<luca> Yes, perhaps Robert. Thanks.

<Leo> My chocolate covered strawberries do not harden.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Are you tempering your chocolate first? Also, be sure that your strawberries are totally dry. Any water or moisture on the berries will cause the chocolate not to set properly.

<chocophile> Robert, can you explain a little about how John's [Sharffenberger] experience as a champagne blender informs the flavor development process?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> The basic structure of the chocolate from a taste perspective owes a lot to Bernachon in Lyon, where I worked briefly before the company began. They were blending beans. This fit naturally with John's experience in sparkling wine, especially the idea that chocolate should be balanced in flavor and that acidity in the finish is a part of that balance.

<Jason> From your website, it sounds like your experience at Bernachon was a critical learning experience. Has Scharffen Berger offered similar internships, or can you recommend somewhere to learn about making chocolate in hopes of starting a company such as yours?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> Unfortunately, we don't offer internships. Bernachon offered to let me work there for two weeks. It wasn't an internship in the true sense of the word.

<Dee> What is new in the area of varietals/one location chocolates and what is the best application for them?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> I think there is a tendency to over-define the idea of varietal chocolates. There is no application system in chocolate as there is in wine. At Scharffen Berger we favor blending because we think it is easier to achieve balance, but in the end you should rely more on your taste buds than the label on the chocolate.

<Jan> What are some of the best cocoa powders and powdered sugars (name and type) to use for dusting truffles?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> You can see a list of premium cocoa powders in our Chocolate section in "Look It Up" on our website. Scharffen Berger also makes a very nice cocoa for dusting.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> I (of course) prefer our cocoa powder because it is natural, i.e., it doesn't contain alkali. We are very careful in selecting our beans and therefore the cocoa powder tastes like chocolate not like alkali. There really is a difference. You should do a taste comparison.

<bmw> What is black powdered chocolate and when and why should I use it?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Oh yes, black cocoa powder. It's used to create a dark, dark chocolate look. It’s recommended that you only replace a small portion of the regular cocoa powder in a recipe with the black. I've never used it personally so I can’t really comment on the flavor.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> Black chocolate is highly alkalized cocoa powder. It has almost no chocolate flavor, I can't imagine using it. It moves chocolate from the realm of food to the realm of design.

<luca> How long can ganache last covered in the fridge before using it?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> So long as the ganache is very well covered (airtight) it will keep for several days in the fridge. I often put a piece of plastic wrap directly on the surface of my ganache as well to prevent a "skin" from forming.

<luca> Great. It is so easy and is a great filling/topping etc.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I agree. Ganache is good stuff.

<silvip> Can a cake filled with ganache be kept out of the fridge? If so, for how long would you say it stays fresh?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Yes. In fact, unless the cake is filled with a custard or whipped cream of some sort, I think they're best served at room temperature (better for taste and texture). I like to leave the cake out long enough for the ganache to be softened. The time will depend on the size of the cake but I think you're safe for a few hours.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> I probably wouldn't leave a ganache-filled cake out of the fridge for more than a few days. There is no hard and fast rule, but it can definitely sour.

<chocophile> Robert, I used the 41% milk chocolate in a tasting event the other night. How hard was it to find milk that you thought gave you the taste you were looking for and what flavors guided that selection?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> We tasted a number of milk powders. There are differences in drying methods and the feed of the cows seems to make a difference as well.

<mjgingerbread> I grew up in Europe where the quality of chocolate is much finer than most American brands. It is refreshing to see American chocolate companies like Scharffen Berger producing a creamier, higher quality brand of chocolate. It is a shame that most of the population here is content with eating Hershey's-like products. Do you feel the market is difficult to break into because of the general taste palette here, or is there much more room left for quality chocolatiers like yourself?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> I think there is more room. Tastes are changing here, but I still think the public is having a difficult time with the actual tasting of chocolate. Restaurants tend to use less expensive chocolate because they think customers can't perceive small differences. Look where the wine industry has gone in the U.S. in the last 30 years.

<mjgingerbread> True. I agree with you, and definitely can taste the difference. Thank you.

<mjgingerbread> The history and story of your company is inspiring. I will be attending pastry school in May after a successful (but unfulfilling) career in graphic design. With my European insight and experience, I hope to influence the American dessert (chocolate) palette and raise the bar on quality.

<sue> For eating I prefer milk chocolate. Are there any plans to produce a more "milky" milk chocolate than the one you already have (it was a little bitter for me)?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> We probably won't be doing a more milky chocolate in the near future. That part of the market is already reasonably well-served.

<Jan> I see, on some truffles, something which is purple, pink, green, etc., which looks like candied something. Please advise on what range of things these could be. I know that sometimes the pink are candied rose petals and the purple are candied violet petals.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Are you talking about the garnishes used to decorate truffles?

<Jan> Yes.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Garnishes are up to the individual company so they could be just about anything edible. There's no universal garnish to signify or distinguish flavors.

<Tarre> Is there an organic market? Why do you think people want organic chocolate?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> In addition to organic products being all-natural, products that are produced organically are produced with efforts made to preserve the environment and welfare of the workers and animals/plants that are involved in its production.

<Tarre> What do you think has caused people to be interested in this production method. . . news accounts, quality control, environmental impact?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> People are more concerned these days about where their food comes from and how it is produced for a variety of health and ethical reasons.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> I want to comment briefly on organic chocolate. I wrote a longer piece on the subject on our website, but approximately 80% of cacao is de facto organic. It is grown in such remote areas that it needs to be thought of in a slightly different way from crops grown locally. The logistics and cost of using pesticide (as well as their effectiveness), make it far less common than people think.

<chocophile> Excuse me for jumping in on this one. Tarre, organic certification is a process that costs money that relatively few farmers and cooperatives can afford. So, though it might actually be organic, according to labeling laws it can't be called organic because it's not certified.

<Tarre> I understand. I guess I was asking if Scharffen Berger would be getting that certification and marketing as organic.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> The laws covering organic require that they be certified. We are not certified organic and I have no way of knowing whether every bean is organic. Thousands of small farmers may contribute to the cacao from a single origin.

<Tarre> But you do not brand your chocolate organic?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> We're thinking about organic certification for some products. We use some certified beans now, but overall the quality in organic is not as widespread as one would think.

<Tarre> Thank you.

<Jason> What's the most challenging aspect of producing a consistent product? Do you have difficulty getting beans? Do you maintain close relationships with individual producers, or deal with brokers or cooperatives?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> We get beans from a variety of sources, both producers and brokers. I may look at 30 bean samples before finding one that works for us.

<C8keDiva> Do you use a single type of bean or a combination to produce your chocolate?

<Jason> If your bean supply is constantly changing, that must make it extremely difficult to maintain the same flavor profile from batch to batch? How do you evaluate a bean? Do you have to make it into chocolate first or just roast it and eat the bean?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> We don't strive to keep the chocolate taste exactly the same from season to season. There are inevitable variations in beans. We do however blend using the bean flavors in different proportions to stay close to the overall profile.

<Jason> Do you use the same basic bean blend for the 70%, 82%, etc.? Do you have plans to produce different blends or varietals the way Valhrona does?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> We also use different blends for different chocolates.

<Jason> I love the old equipment that you use, such as the conche, but has your production capacity been limited by that equipment? Do you have any secrets for tracking down that old equipment?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> There are used equipment dealers, but virtually all the time the equipment requires refurbishing. That usually costs more than the original piece.

<Ted> Are there tours available at Scharffen Berger Chocolate factory in Berkeley?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> We have tours of the factory seven days a week several times a day. Check the website at www.scharffenberger.com.

<chocophile> This is a variation on an earlier question. Apart from the branded truffles, how do you see your chocolate business developing/changing in the next two years. . . new flavor profiles, percentages, inclusions, etc.?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> Mostly, I see consumers becoming more sophisticated about chocolate. Nibs are interesting to many people because they are the bean itself. Savory food and chocolate, cacao is another area of interest.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I see that a lot of chefs are using nibs these days in both sweet and savory applications. I tried Scharffen Berger's chocolate covered nibs and they're wonderful. It's a wonder nobody thought of making those before.

<Kate_PastryScoop> I used nibs in place of nuts in a salad and it was wonderful. . . and even better when I used them in the macaroon recipe on your site.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Robert, I noticed that all your chocolate products are stamped with a best used by date. I think that's great. Some people seem to think that chocolate has no shelf life.

<silvip> I have some chocolate that I tempered incorrectly. I let it harden again and it has become a little whitish. Can I use it again to temper? Or to bake?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> It seems that your chocolate has bloomed. It's okay to use again for non-decorative purposes. It's still safe to eat.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> Bloomed chocolate is perfectly safe to eat, but it will taste better if you melt it and retemper it. It's fine for cooking.

<silvip> There are some relatively inexpensive tempering machines on the market. Did someone ever try them and know if they work?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Unless you're tempering large quantities of chocolate, it's just easier to do the old fashioned way by hand. With a little practice, it's very easy and fast too.

<silvip> That's the way I burned my chocolate the last couple of times. So I kind of gave up.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> It just takes a little practice. You should never heat your chocolate so hot to risk burning. Are you melting in the microwave or using the double-boiler method?

<silvip> Double-boiler method. Then I use a bain marie to take the temperature down.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> Tempering takes practice and patience, but it is not inherently difficult.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Also, the chocolate may not look melted but if you stir it, you'll see that it's melting. I like to melt my chocolate in a stainless steel bowl over gently simmering water. Take your chocolate off the heat before its fully melted and stir. The residual heat will melt the chocolate.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> I agree with Judiaann. Many of the problems in using chocolate result from overheating. It can tolerate heat, even up to 140 or 150ºF, but you should not put it over direct heat.

<silvip> Do you use an electronic thermometer?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Yes. I always use a digital thermometer to check temperatures.

<silvip> If I don't have good results tempering the old-fashioned way, do you recommend any tempering machines for a small business?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> For a small business, it might be worthwhile to invest in a table top tempering machine. You can find many distributors with a quick internet search.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> Some of the small tempering machines do work well if you're having trouble.

<mjgingerbread> As a successful entrepreneur yourself, what is the biggest lesson you have learned in starting Scharffen Berger? What is the best piece of advice to share with someone just starting out in the pastry/confection market?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> In general, I think that you need to find a way to know what you don't know and not be afraid of failure.

<mjgingerbread> Thank you. I look forward to adding Scharffen Berger on my list of ingredient vendors in the success of my future business. It's been a pleasure chatting with you.

<Cheri> Can Scharffen Berger chocolate be purchased at wholesale prices for someone just getting into producing chocolates?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> If you have a business, even a small one, you can purchase chocolate directly from us. Check out the website.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> For consumers, Scharffen Berger has shops in Berkeley and San Francisco, California and their new location in New York City. Their products are also available nationwide at fine food stores such as Williams-Sonoma, Dean & Deluca, Sur La Table, and Whole Foods Markets. You can also purchase directly from their website at www.scharffenberger.com.

<logo> Robert, what is the best way to manually dip macadamia nuts?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I like to use the same small tool used when dipping chocolate truffles. You can find it as just about any candy/pastry supply shop. It's only a few bucks and it does the trick nicely.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> You should use special chocolate dipping tools. A loop would probably work best.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Yes, that's what it's called! A loop.

<logo> How do you avoid the foot?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Tap off as much as you can before placing on parchment paper to set. Also, dipping in a slightly thinner chocolate will produce less of a foot. You'll always have a little foot when dipping by this method.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> You probably can't avoid it entirely. Try to shake off as much of the chocolate as possible.

<Jan> Robert, I sell almost exclusively dark chocolate. I have heard that I can make it darker with chocolate liquor but that not all liquors are compatible with every type of chocolate. How can I use liquor and how will I know which can be used with the chocolate I use?

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> I'm not sure I understand what you mean by compatible.

<Jan> Will it change the taste to something which is not consistent with my chocolate flavor? I too am unclear about the problems in using it.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> Our 99% (liquor) is similar in taste to our other chocolates. I agree that using inexpensive liquor will affect the taste.

<linda57> I have made chocolate candies before. This year for Christmas I tried making a chocolate sculpture with chocolate. I was told to use play dough to form the sculpture. After the chocolate cooled I couldn’t get all the play dough off. What did I do wrong?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I've never heard of using play dough with chocolate. Sounds a little strange to me.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> I'm getting the picture, but perhaps the chocolate wasn't well-tempered.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Unfortunately, our time is up. Thank you Dr. Steinberg for joining us today! Thank you everyone for joining us as well.

<Kate_PastryScoop> For those of you in New York, visit their new store at 473 Amsterdam (between 82nd and 83rd). Definitely visit!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> We will be posting a transcript of this chat along with the others in the next few weeks.

<Robert_Scharffen Berger> Thanks to everyone who participated. Lots of great questions.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Join us for the next installment in our Chocolate series as we chat with Alison Nelson from the Chocolate Bar on Wednesday, February 9th from 12:00 noon to 1:00 PM (ET).

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Thanks again for joining us. Eat your chocolate!

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