PastryScoop.com Summer Wedding Cake Chat Series

Cheryl Kleinman of Cheryl Kleinman Cakes
June 2, 2004

<Kate_PastryScoop> Hi everyone! Welcome to the first chat in our summer series on wedding cakes. Today, we are lucky enough to have Cheryl Kleinman with us. Welcome Cheryl! Thank you for being our guest!

<Cheryl> Thank you. It's nice to be here.

<Jacque> How long have you been decorating?

<Cheryl> Since the early 80's.

<Gloriaagain> How did you get started? What were the biggest challenges you faced in starting your own business?

<Cheryl> I lost my desk job and the economy was in a bad state. This was the profession I moved to and am thankful every day. But there have certainly been many challenges along the way.

<CakeDJour> In the beginning, did you decorate at home for family and friends?

<Cheryl> Yes. And they loved me anyway...!

<Jacque> How did you learn to decorate? Classes? Pastry school? Self-taught?

<Cheryl> I am mostly self-taught, but did attend some classes to hone my skills and spent some time apprenticing.

<Liza> Is there a way to learn to decorate cakes at home? (books, video tapes, etc.?)

<Cheryl> Yes! Books, videotapes and practice are a great place to start!

<CakeDJour> Where should I go to gain experience in cake decorating?

<Cheryl> I suggest practicing on your own at first and then apprenticing with someone you admire. A great school with cake classes is also another good place to learn.

<Jock_FCI> The French Culinary Institute has great cake and wedding cake units as part of the 600 hour pastry program.

<CakeDJour> I have a degree in pastry arts from Johnson & Wales. Because I just want to focus on cake decorating, is it possible to take a few classes at The FCI without enrolling full-time?

<Jock_FCI> Unfortunately, the short answer is no, but check back with Judiaann Woo at www.pastryscoop.com. Pastryscoop.com is holding a conference in the fall featuring many great guest chefs for a short, one day affair!

<Cheryl> Well, I graduated with a degree in Psychology, and I must say it has come in very handy for the nervous brides!

<Sil> Any ideas on how to start a business from home? Do I need permits? From whom?

<Cheryl> Try contacting the Small Business Administration for details. Every state's laws are different. Also contact your county health department for any other county specific regulations.

<Anni> Can you give us some inside guidance in regards to the business side of your work? What do you wish you would have known or done differently when you started your business?

< Cheryl > Cloning!!!

<CakeQT> Can you offer some advice to someone who is planning on opening their own business?

<Cheryl> Sure. Buy the coffee first, then look for great assistants that require no sleep either!

<Joshalow> Do you have employees working at your shop? How many?

<Cheryl> Yes, we have a wonderful staff. The number of employees varies by season and demand!

<Debbie> Do you have any openings for apprentices?

<Cheryl> Sometimes we do have openings. When we do, we usually take apprentices from nearby culinary schools.

<Jacque> Do you photograph your own cakes? Any tips for getting better photos?

<Cheryl> Yes, we photograph all of our cakes. A great way to photograph a cake is in a well lit environment with NO flash.

<ww66> What is your cut off time for changes from a client?

<Cheryl> Two weeks.

<Dorina> Is your Atlantic Avenue location a retail store, or is it by appointment only?

<Cheryl> At the moment, everything is by appointment only, but soon we will cater to the retail market. Also, I have a website coming soon!

<CakeDJour> Did you give samples of your cakes when you first opened your business?

<Cheryl> Yes, and we still do!

<Suzanne> Do you have a limit as to how many cakes orders you will take per day or per weekend? If so, have you ever had to turn away business?

<Cheryl> Yes, we have a limit that varies on the number, size, and intricacy of the cakes. Turning away an eager customer never feels good.

<joshalow> Any suggestions for marketing your own wedding cakes, perhaps in bridal magazines?

<Cheryl> Create your cakes, photograph them, and submit your work to anyone and everyone!

<CakeDJour> Which cake books do you prefer when looking for inspiration and advice?

<Cheryl> My favorite references are actually current bridal magazines. I look to them for the visuals aspects of the cakes!

<Jacque> Where do you get inspiration and ideas for your cake designs?

<Cheryl> I gather ideas and inspiration everywhere I go. Last week I saw a little girl with a tutu and that gave me an idea for a cake design!

<Joshalow> How do you feel about people making replicas of your cake designs or brides asking you to do so with other decorators' cakes?

<Cheryl> Sometimes it is flattering, sometimes it is disturbing. If a bride asks me to make copies of others' designs, I usually refer them directly to the designer to get the exact look, if they are accessible.

<Jeanne> Which is your favorite design from your portfolio?

<Cheryl> I'm a very finicky, indecisive person, so my favorite design is usually my newest one!

<CakeQT> When you were beginning to explore your passion for cake design, who did you admire most? Who's style can you relate to or do you feel that you have your own unique style?

<Cheryl> I would have to say I have always looked up to the styling of both Joseph Lanciani and Betty Van Nostrand. But at this point, I think I have my own unique style

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Can you share some of the names of your celebrity clients?

<Cheryl> We have designed cakes for the Clintons, the Seinfelds, and the Lauders to name a few.

<Anni> Do you have any suggestions or helpful hints for transporting cakes long distances and cross-country? Do you travel with the cake and send components ahead via FedEx?

<Cheryl> Long distance is a challenge! I suggest keeping the cakes in air conditioned environments. Some components can be sent via FedEx, but definitely NOT the cakes!

<Suzanne> What is your favorite decorating tool?

<Cheryl> Basket weave rolling pins are great!

<Cycloneswimmer> Is store bought icing better for the basket weave tool, or do you prefer homemade icing?

<Cheryl> Definitely homemade icing.

<CakeQT> Where do you get most of your supplies?

<Cheryl> We buy the bulk of our supplies from local suppliers.

<Char> Do you have a good source for ribbon and foil paper to cover cake board bases?

<Cheryl> Actually, we cover our cake boards with fabric.

<Char> What kind of fabric do you use?

<Cheryl> We generally use muslin and sheers.

<Suzanne> How do you get the fabric smooth on a round cake board? How do you secure it underneath without making the fabric gather?

<Cheryl> We cut fabric only a little bit bigger than the board and secure it with duct tape underneath.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> You can also cover cake boards with royal icing or rolled fondant.

<Anni> When covering a cake board (Masonite board) with fondant, what's the best way to get the fondant to stick yet still have a smoothly coated board?

<Cheryl> I would recommend using a little piping gel.

<Char> We need a good wholesale source for ribbon, know of any?

<Dorina> For ribbons and trimmings I shop at K-Trimmings on Broadway and Prince in New York for a wide variety at an affordable price.

< Cheryl > We usually use Midori Ribbon. Take a look at their catalog online

<Laura> For ribbon, also try Hyman Hendler on 38 th Street, between 5 th and 6 th Avenues

<CakeDJour> How can you order from wholesale companies if you don't have a business yet?

<Cheryl> Where there is a will there is a way. Try negotiating- offer to pay cash.

<Sil> How do you obtain the boxes in which you store and transport your cakes?

<Cheryl> We purchase box material from a paper company. After cutting the material to the appropriate size for the cake, we assemble it and box the cake.

<Jeanne> Fondant has been on the increase in the last few years; do you think that buttercream will make a comeback?

<Cheryl> I think trends are a matter of seasonality. Fondant is certainly the most practical in these warmer months to come, but buttercream is always a staple icing in the cool months.

<Betty> Do you have any suggestions on wedding cakes for outdoor, hot weather ceremonies?

<Cheryl> I would say your best strategy is to use rolled icings (fondant, marzipan, etc.) and to steer clear of mousse fillings or fresh fruit toppings that will compromise the beauty of the cake in the summer heat.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Remember, heat is the enemy of cakes. Keep them cool when storing and transporting and let them come to room temperature before serving (except mousse cakes and the like).

<Char> How thin do you roll fondant icing, when covering cakes?

<Cheryl> You want your fondant to be slightly see-through.

<Caroline> How do you keep cake icings from sweating and melting in the summertime?

<Cheryl> Well, strategy-wise: lots of air conditioning! Fondant and marzipan are the two most durable products to use to cover cakes in the hot seasons.

<Cathy> After placing a crumb coating on the cake, I refrigerate it. But, when applying the second coat, the frosting hardens very quickly. Any suggestions?

<Cheryl> The cake is probably too cold. I suggest working quickly, or letting the cake come to room temperature before applying the second coat.

<Joshalow> What kind of icing do you use on your cakes, under the fondant?

<Cheryl> Buttercream, always buttercream! To be exact, we use Swiss buttercream because I like it and there is no reason not to use it. The ingredients are simple- sugar, water, egg whites and butter (no shortening!) and the result is always a beautiful, white buttercream. Plus, it stays fresh when held at 75 degrees for a few days, up to a week.

<Char> Can you flavor rolled fondant with extracts or oils?

<Cheryl> Certainly, you can use both extracts and oils in your fondant for flavor as well as syrups.

<Sil> What kind of fillings do you use? I don't like buttercream but I don't know any other filling that can withstand room temperature for so long.

<Cheryl> Jams and ganache are always great alternatives to buttercream fillings and have great resistance to room temperature. (Remember that for a ganache, the cream is boiled first and the ratio is small, making its shelf life long.)

<ElsbethLutz> My daughter has asked me to bake her wedding cake- a cupcake tree. She would like some cupcakes carrot cake and the others lemon cake. Which recipes do you think are best for freezing the cupcakes and icing 2-3 weeks in advance?

<Cheryl> Pound cake recipes are always delicious as cupcakes. As for specific recipes, you will need to try a few and see which tastes best after 2 weeks, well-wrapped in your freezer. Also, you may want to consider icing the cupcakes the day of the wedding- the defrosted icing will probably not have the consistency you want.

<Suzanne> Do you use dowels or straws for support?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> For smaller stacked cakes, I use plastic straws to support the weight between the layers. A center dowel is always a good idea. I transport cakes unstacked and assemble them on location.

<Cheryl> I use lollipop sticks and wooden dowels as support mechanisms. Don't fret if you have problems from time to time stacking the cake, we all do!

<Jeanne> How do you handle a tier that is not level? It happened to me this past weekend. One tier was off just enough for me to notice, and I wondered whether I should cut one dowel taller or not. I opted to leave the dowels flush with the top since it wasn't too much of a noticeable difference.

<Cheryl> Try to have all the tiers level to start with and all the dowels the same height. This will ensure a level tiered cake. But, in your situation, you did the right thing.

<Dorina> In pictures of cakes with 4 or more tiers, is the bottom usually fake? Or, is it possible to build many tiers on a cake and still have a stable finished product?

<Cheryl> Unfortunately, in pictures everything is usually Styrofoam, covered with icing. However, with the right sized tiers and proper support, it is certainly possible to build an edible, tall, stable cake!

<Dorina> How do I achieve the super-smooth buttercream look on cake tiers?

<Cheryl> Using a Swiss meringue buttercream, mix until it is very smooth. Apply it to the cake and use a straight edge to help get those smooth sides you desire.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Also, Swiss meringue is great because you don't have to worry about little crystallized bits of sugar that you can get with an Italian meringue.

<Suzanne> Can you suggest a strategy for draping a square cake in fondant?

<Cheryl> I get my best results rolling the top and sides separate and piping decoration where there may be any seams.

<CakeDJour> How do you suggest I comb the corners of a square cake?

<Cheryl> Simply run the comb off the edge of one side and continue on the next side.

<Suzanne> Can I refrigerate a fondant-draped mousse cake? If not, how long can I leave it at room temperature? (There are no raw eggs in the recipe, but there is plenty of cream!)

<Cheryl> You can refrigerate fondant, but beware, it may sweat depending on how humid your refrigerator is. Do not leave it at room temperature for too long, that mousse cake is perishable!

<Georgina> What are the rules for enlarging a cake such a gènoise?

<Cheryl> There are no specific rules. First try extending the recipe to yield the appropriate amount. Adjust the recipe accordingly until you achieve your desired results. It's all trial and error.

<Suzanne> Have you ever made a tres leches wedding cake? I have a client who wants one, but I don't think it'll work-too moist and dense!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> In order to get a tres leches cake to taste and feel like what you might expect, I don't think it would be the best for structure's sake. Remember, wedding cakes need a great deal of structure! However, you may be able to design a cake where each tier is supported separately without allowing the weight to sit on the other layers.

<Cycloneswimmer> Which do you prefer to use for decorating- silk flowers or real flowers?

<Cheryl> Both flowers will work well for decorating. With real flowers, please remember to make sure the stems are clean and the flowers are not toxic!

<Anni> If your bride wants fresh flowers, how do you ensure that they're pesticide-free? Should you ask your florist or supplier to assume liability in the event that the flowers are not pesticide-free?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I advise asking your florist about pesticide-free flowers or use edible flowers such as pansies, johnny jump ups, etc. that are safe to eat.

<Cheryl> Rather than taking the chance, I suggest getting your fresh flowers from an organic florist. Regardless of the florist, though, ALWAYS wash the stems!

<Jacque> Do you put the stems of the flowers into the cake?

<Cheryl> Sometimes we attach fresh flowers with royal icing and sometimes we pierce their stems into the cake.

<PCMS> Do you have any suggestions for attaching gum paste flowers to a buttercream cake?

<Cheryl> First chill the cake. Then, attach the gum paste flowers with the same buttercream to take attention off of the attachment mechanism and draw attention to your beautiful flowers!

<ww66> Any suggestions on how to gather gum paste flowers very close together on a topper?

<Cheryl> I like to use a variety of large and small flowers. A small pair of pliers will help neatly gather them together.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I suggest attaching the gum paste flowers to wire and joining them together with floral tape. This will create tight floral clusters without a lot of bulk at the base. Trim and position the flowers as needed.

<Suzanne> Is there a way to make buttercream flowers that maintain their shape without using shortening?

<Cheryl> Yes! A meringue buttercream is a great way to make flowers. You can change the flavor with each color, if you'd like!

<Joshalow> Do you have any suggestions for pricing cakes and gum paste flowers?

<Cheryl> First figure out your labor cost. Then calculate it with your ingredient cost. You price will determine how much profit you want to make with each sale.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> When determining your own cake costs, do a little research in your area to determine average costs. Wedding cakes in large metropolitan areas tend to cost more per slice. Factor in labor, ingredients, supplies, and don't forget to account for delivery.

<Suzanne> I don't charge for delivery, because for most cakes I MUST assemble it on-site (pick-up is not an option). Do you think there is an ethical excuse for me to begin charging for delivery? Though gas is ridiculously expensive these days, I hate to charge people for something I'm not giving them a choice about.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I always deliver the cakes I make. There's an old saying that you can only trust two people to deliver your cake safely: the person making the cake and the person paying for it. That said, better to be safe than sorry. If you don't want to charge separately for delivery, maybe you should consider incorporating the specific delivery cost into the overall cost for the cake.

<Cheryl> I agree, you should be charging for delivery. Perhaps in the cake fee you can call it a "set-up charge."

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> If you're just starting out and you're trying to build your client base, you can charge whatever you want, you may even offer to do cakes for free or at a discount. It's up to you. Just be aware that building, decorating, and delivering a fabulous cake takes TIME!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Speaking of time, unfortunately, our time is up. Thank you all for joining us today. And special thanks to our guest CHERYL KLEINMAN for joining us today and sharing her tips and suggestions. For all of you cake enthusiasts, PastryScoop.com will be offering a cake decorating workshop on Sunday, October 17th. Stay tuned for event details.

<Jock_FCI> If anyone needs information on The French Culinary Institute's pastry program please email me at jgrundy@frenchculinary.com My name is Jock Grundy.

<Cheryl> Thanks for having me!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Also, don't forget to check back on PastryScoop.com to read a story about NYC cake artists (including Cheryl Kleinman) later this month! Also, transcripts for this chat will be posted in July after the last wedding cake chat (there are two more!). In the meantime, look under "Conference & Events" to view transcripts from our previous online chats!

<Kate_PastryScoop> Thank you Cheryl and thank you to everyone who came. Tune in on Wednesday, June 16th at noon (EST) for our next wedding cake chat with Ron Ben-Israel.