PastryScoop Holiday Chat Series

Susan Reid, King Arthur Flour
November 17, 2004

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Hi Everyone! Thank you for joining us today for our chat. A slight change of plans...Instead of P.J. Hamel, we have editor and recipe developer SUSAN REID from King Arthur Flour here with us today to answer all your holiday baking questions.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Hi Susan.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I heard you were baking cookies this morning?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> 12 dozen cookies!

<Susan_Reid> Hi, everyone!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Does anyone have any questions to start?

<merry> What is the best type of flour to make pie dough?

<Susan_Reid> Merry: Around here, we use either all-purpose or our Pastry Blend, which has a slightly lower protein level and yields a more tender crust.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I've had really good results using a recipe using a blend of AP and cake flour.

<Susan_Reid> Judiaann: Which is, not coincidentally, close to what our Pastry Blend does, except we use unbleached pastry flour.

<merry> Do you add white vinegar to your pie dough?

<Susan_Reid> I haven't done much with vinegar, personally, because 90% of what makes pie crusts tender or flaky is in how you handle them.

<Ame> How can I prevent the bottom of my apple pies from getting soggy?

<Susan_Reid> Ame: Any two-crust pie that has a lot of juicy stuff in it is at risk for this. There are several things you can do to compensate. One is to cook the apples in advance, so that the thickener in the pie filling has a chance to take up some of the liquid. If you don't want to go that far, try brushing the bottom crust with egg white, and par baking the shell for 5 minutes before you add the filling.

<Ame> Do you find a difference using Crisco versus butter in the crust for pies?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Ame: Pie dough is the only exception I make for Crisco in baking since it produces a tender and flaky, All-American style, pie crust. However, you need to add some butter for flavor. I would never recommend an all Crisco crust. I like using half butter, half Crisco or 2/3 butter 1/3 Crisco but never more. If you're at all concerned about trans fat than you can make a very nice all butter crust. It's really a matter of personal preference.

<Susan_Reid> I'm with you, Judiaann. I use half Crisco (no substitutions) and half butter.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> How long do you think folks can safely freeze their pie dough?

<Susan_Reid> Pie dough can be frozen for up to 6 weeks, if it's wrapped properly. Once it's rolled out and in a pan, it can also be frozen, but since it has so much more surface area that way I wouldn't freeze it for more than two weeks.

<merry> When freezing pie dough, should the dough be defrosted before use?

<Susan_Reid> Merry: If you froze it in a flat disk (easiest), I recommend putting it in the refrigerator the night before, and then using it the next day. If the crust is already rolled out before freezing, just fill and put it in the oven.

<Ame> I normally make quite a number of apple pies at once and freeze them. Do you recommend baking them first?

<Susan_Reid> I would freeze them raw, personally. No matter how careful you are with your timing when you par bake, it's just not the same as fresh out of the oven. If freezing raw, I'd put a little extra thickener in, to compensate for the extra water the apples will release after freezing.

<Cindy> When a recipe calls for self-rising flour, do I have to run out and buy some or can I make my own? If so, why do recipes specify this specialty?

<Susan_Reid> To make self rising flour, mix 1 cup of flour, 1 1/2 teaspoons of baking powder, and 1/2 teaspoon salt.

<Ame> What type of thickener do you suggest for the apple pies?

<Susan_Reid> I use all-purpose flour for apple pies; the Baker's Companion has a groovy chart all about thickeners in it that you might want to check out.

<Megan> Lately, I've been experimenting with substituting whole wheat flour for part or all of my baking, particularly with cookies. I don't notice much difference in the outcome. Do you have any comments?

<Susan_Reid> If you're experimenting with whole wheat in your cookies, I recommend not swapping more than half the volume of the AP flour in the recipe for whole wheat. And I recommend using white whole wheat, which has less of a tannic flavor when you do this.

<Megan> I've never heard of white whole wheat. Is it bleached?

<Susan_Reid> White whole wheat is nutritionally the same as traditional whole wheat, but it is a different strain that doesn't have the phenolic acid that gives traditional whole wheat it's stronger, some say bitter, taste.

<Ame> When baking cookies is there a particular pan you suggest using? I bought some cookie sheets from Martha Stewart and they have a 1-inch lip on all sides.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Ame: the pans you bought from MS are what many professionals use. They're also commonly known as jelly roll pans. They're fairly inexpensive and they work really well.

<Susan_Reid> My favorite cookie sheet is a restaurant-style aluminum half sheet pan. They're incredibly durable, light colored, and have a billion and one uses.

<Ame> I have a terrible time when rolling out cookie dough to be the same height and then have a time lifting them on to the pan. Any suggestions?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Ame: They all sell non-stick rolling mats but it's just a matter of practice. If the dough gets too soft, just chill it for a few minutes before starting again.

<Susan_Reid> One of my favorite rolling-out tricks is to have a couple of inexpensive bamboo chopsticks on the counter, and use them as guides to keep the rolling pin a consistent height above the surface. Some people put rings or rubber bands on the outside edges of their pins. Chilling a stainless steel rolling pin is helpful. Not much point with wood.

<Susan_Reid> For chopsticks: place two chopsticks on the rolling surface parallel to each other, about 9 inches apart. Put some cookie dough between them. Roll the pin over the chopsticks, and you'll get a consistent thickness all the way down.

<danielle> When I roll out the dough for sugar cookies the dough gets warm and harder to work with. Do you have any tips or techniques besides keeping the dough you don't work with in the fridge?

<Susan_Reid> When rolling out sugar cookies, the secret weapon is plastic wrap. Only use half of the dough at a time. Put a piece of plastic wrap on top of the dough and roll out right through it. Pick it up and reposition as needed.

<Raina_PastryScoop> Danielle, you might also roll the dough and chill it again before you cut it.

<Megan> At the last PastryScoop conference, I learned that pie dough should only be rolled out on one side. I always flip it over part way through rolling to make sure it doesn't stick. Wrong? In Gourmet's current issue that covers pie dough, there is no mention of this "rule."

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Megan, I roll on one side but I rotate the circle of dough after a few turns to ensure that it is not sticking.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Also, be sure to brush off any excess flour that may stick to the dough.

<Megan> I get confused about when to prebake a crust before filling and continuing to bake versus filling an unbaked crust.

<Susan_Reid> Prebaking is generally used for pies that have custard fillings, or sometimes for pecan pie, which is pretty darn juicy.

<Megan> When I prebake a crust for a quiche and then add the filling and custard, sometimes the edges get over baked. Suggestions?

<Susan_Reid> One way to keep edges from burning is the foil shield, where you tear a 3-inch wide piece of foil, and fold it over before draping on the edge of the pie, like a scarf. It's best to do this after the crust has had a chance to set up, after baking for 10 minutes.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Megan, I bet you could use a pie shield/guard which protects the edges. King Arthur sells one in their Baker's Catalogue.

<dmalouf> Has anyone tried using a pasta roller to roll cookie dough?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Dmalouf, I've never uses a pasta roller to roll dough before but I'm sure it could be done. Most professional bakeries use a machine called a sheeter which works on a similar concept.

<Megan> I often wing my oatmeal calculation when making chocolate chip oatmeal cookies, substituting a portion of flour. Is there a standard substitution to tell me how much oatmeal replaces how much flour?

<Susan_Reid> You don't really have to delete any flour when you're adding oatmeal to the dough; I wouldn't take out more than a cup or you risk some structural problems!

<Ame> Should uncooked frozen pies be defrosted before baking?

<Susan_Reid> An uncooked frozen pie should go right into the oven, solid. Baking time will need to increase by at least 15 minutes, and you may want to drop the temperature to 350 degrees while you wait for the middle of the pie to catch up to the edges.

<Ame> Is there a secret when making lemon meringue pies so that the filling doesn't become watery once it's refrigerated?

<Susan_Reid> Ame: one thing that helps is to make sure the meringue goes all the way to the edge of the pie crust, so no filling is exposed. That will buy you some time, but the food chemistry of refrigerated meringue is pretty unmerciful I'm afraid.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Any other tips that come to mind?

<danielle> Susan, can all cookie dough be put in the freezer until you are ready to use?

<Susan_Reid> For chilled cookie dough, I place it in a large plastic bag right after mixing, and flatten the whole thing with a rolling pin so it's about an inch thick before putting it in the fridge. This helps the dough chill faster, and it also gives you a head start when you go to roll it out later.

<Megan> Won't baking a drop cookie, like chocolate chip, from frozen make them go runny and flatten out? I feel like I haven't figured this out yet.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> A chilled round ball will spread less for sure.

<Susan_Reid> When I freeze drop cookies, I scoop the dough and freeze it on a sheet pan. Once frozen, I store the raw cookies in a freezer zip-top bag. Then when I go to bake, I take out the cookies, put them on the sheet, and let them thaw while the oven is preheating.

<dmalouf> I freeze and bake drop cookies all the time. You might have to adjust the time but it'll work. I shape them, then freeze them, then pop in the oven as is.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Here's another tip. Line your cookie sheets, cake bottoms, loaf pans, etc. with parchment paper and you'll never have to worry about things sticking again. Plus it makes clean up so much easier.

<Ame> Any recipe suggestions for a soft chocolate chip cookie. No matter what recipe I use-all butter, butter and Crisco, they all come out the same-pretty flat.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Crisco cookies? Yikes! Use butter in cookies for the best flavor.

<bldecker> My cookies bake flat like pancakes. I've replaced ingredients, bakeware, and even tested the oven temp. What could be wrong?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> For puffy chocolate chip cookies, you have to use a recipe that is intended for that result. The Nestle Toll House standard will always result in a pretty flat cookie.

<Susan_Reid> As for flat cookies, there are several factors to this. If the dough is warm before going into the oven, it will spread more. The protein level in the flour is also a factor. If your flour is lower protein, the cookies will have less structure. King Arthur's all-purpose flour has more protein than Gold Medal or Pillsbury.

<Susan_Reid> The fat used in cookies can also make a difference. If you're using shortening, make sure it's Crisco. If you're using butter, make sure it's not a blend or a spread. Butter spreads more than shortening does.

<Susan_Reid> King Arthur's web site has a page called "About our flours" which explains what protein levels are and what they do. Basically, the more protein flour has, the more structure it will give your dough. Hard wheat flours, like bread flour, give baked goods a chewy, firm texture. Think bagels. Soft flours give more tenderness, like a cake crumb.

<Susan_Reid> Whole wheat flour has a higher protein level than all-purpose, but since whole wheat flour also includes the bran, it doesn't rise as well. Ground bran has sharp edges, which cut through the gluten strands that hold dough up when it's rising.

<bldecker> What about the differences between bleached and unbleached flour? Will it make a difference in baking?

<Susan_Reid> Bleached flour came about because it was a way to get around the natural aging process. One of the bleaches used is benzoyl peroxide, which frankly I don't want to put in my food. The bleach gives the flour a bit of artificial oven spring it wouldn't have otherwise.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Susan, do you have a favorite brand of commercial unsalted butter?

<Susan_Reid> We're spoiled here, living in Vermont, because we have the Cabot Creamery. For our test kitchen, I buy whichever grocery store brand I can find that doesn't cost more than $3 a pound!

<danielle> When a recipe just says butter, what should you use? Salted or unsalted butter?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Most baking recipes call for unsalted and large eggs unless otherwise specified.

<Susan_Reid> We use unsalted butter in our test kitchen, because it's usually fresher, and has no salt to disguise any off flavors.

<Susan_Reid> The Cookie Companion has a whole host of recipes for classics that are chewy, crispy, or bendy, depending on how you want your cookies to turn out.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> King Arthur also has a cookbook called the Baker's Companion which won several awards.

<danielle> Are their any cookies from the Cookie Companion that is a must have for this holiday season?

<Susan_Reid> The Cookie Companion has a whole tutorial on gingerbread houses in it; a larger one is at www.kingarthurflour.com under Baking Education, where I have an online class. This is the time of year to go for it if ever there was one!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Speaking of gingerbread houses, there's going to be a great exhibition of gingerbread houses at the Dana Discovery Center in NYC's Central Park Dec. 1-5. Some of the cities top chefs are making creative houses with animal themes. You can read more about this Gingerbread Homes for Animals event on our website.

<Megan> My absolute favorite holiday cookie is a Mexican Wedding Cake. I work the dough (butter, confectioners' sugar, flour, salt, baking soda, and ground walnuts or pecans) entirely by hand so that it remains incredibly tender. After they come out of the oven, I dip in confectioners' sugar which melts around the balls and cool completely. Then store sealed in the fridge. They get better with time. When I'm ready to package, I reroll them in icing sugar or sift it over the top and it sticks to the coating. Everyone LOVES this cookie.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Sounds yummy.

<Susan_Reid> Here's a tip for those of you who are going to play with royal icing, colors, and pastry bags. We use our disposable plastic pastry bags for this all the time. If you want to work with several colors at once, use an uncut pastry bag as a sleeve for each of the colors you're working with. That way the end of the bag won't dry out or leak all over the place.

<danielle> If you don't have pastry bags for piping can you use something else? I heard parchment paper works too?

<Susan_Reid> You can make cones out of parchment paper triangles, which is something I wouldn't recommend for a novice (parchment is slippery stuff). The most surefire get-around is a heavy gauge Ziploc bag, like a quart freezer bag. Put in the icing, close the top, and nip off a TINY bit of the corner.

<noriza> Susan, I would like to know if sweet bread doughs can be frozen ahead of time.

<Susan_Reid> Sweet bread doughs can be frozen ahead of time, but if you're thinking of doing this, I recommend using yeast that is more tolerant of higher sugar amounts, like Nevada gold. Too much sugar in yeast dough can give the yeast a bit of a hangover, and cause it to be sluggish. Thaw frozen sweet dough overnight in the fridge before giving it the last rise and baking it.

<bldecker> I love to bake bread. How can I get rid of the yeasty aftertaste?

<Susan_Reid> You can try using less yeast; most recipes will do fine with a half teaspoon less yeast than is called for. How long are you fermenting your dough? Two rises or three? That might be contributing to the flavor you're getting.

<bldecker> Not fermenting too long, but use two rises.

<bldecker> How about the bleached vs. unbleached adding or taking away flavor?

<Susan_Reid> I can always taste the chemicals in baked goods made with bleached flour. It's kind of yucky.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I read that bleached flour results in a tighter cookie with less spread compared to ones made with unbleached flour. Susan, have you heard this?

<Susan_Reid> Actually, yes, the protein in bleached flour is higher and helps keeps things together.

<Karenrwest> I want to make a dense pumpkin bread. Should I look for a recipe using soda or baking powder?

<Susan_Reid> The density for pumpkin bread mostly comes from the water in the pumpkin and the amount of fat in the dough. Butter and oil are the biggest contenders for improving density.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Karenwest: I have a great recipe for a dense and super moist pumpkin bread if you're interested. It freezes really well too.

<Karenrwest> I would like to have the recipe.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Just email me at jwoo@pastryscoop.com and I'll send it to you.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Susan, what is the shelf life for AP flour stored in an air-tight container at room temperature?

<danielle> Is it best to keep flour in the freezer or air tight containers?

<Megan> What about keeping flour in the refrigerator in airtight containers?

<Susan_Reid> All-purpose flour doesn't need to be refrigerated; airtight is also bug-tight, but if you put a bay leaf in the flour the bugs will stay away.

<Susan_Reid> Whole wheat flour should be frozen to retard it going rancid; the oil from the germ can oxidize and go sour, which happens faster at room temp.

<Megan> Goodness, I just had to pull out my notebook and start jotting some of this excellent advice down!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> A transcript of this chat will be posted along with the others from the Holiday Chat series on our website in a few weeks. You can also read previous chat transcripts on our site now.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> The next chat is Dec. 2nd with the bakers of Cook's Illustrated and America's Test Kitchen.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Thank you so much Susan! You're always a wealth of information.

<Susan_Reid> You're most welcome, it's been my pleasure.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Bye everyone! Happy baking and Happy Thanksgiving! Let's get those pies PERFECT this year!

<Susan_Reid> Gotta go pack up the last three dozen cookies. 'Bye all!

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