PastryScoop Holiday Chat Series

Julia Collin and Dawn Yanagihara of Cook's Illustrated and America's Test Kitchen
December 2, 2004

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Hi Everyone! Welcome to our 2nd chat in our Holiday Baking series. I am delighted to introduce Dawn Yanagihara and Julia Collin from Cook’s Illustrated and America’s Test Kitchen. Does anyone have any questions to start?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Dawn and Julia, I hope you both had a wonderful Thanksgiving. I wanted to let you know that I made your fluffy biscuits (featured in your July/August issue) for my holiday dinner and they were AWESOME! The best biscuits ever and I’m a big biscuit lover so that’s saying a lot.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I’m sharing that recipe with all my baking friends for sure!

<Kate_PastryScoop> Hi Dawn. Can you tell me a little about baking powder? Sometimes a recipe specifies “double-acting” baking powder and other times it just says “baking powder.” Are most of the grocery store brands double-acting?

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Most brands out there are double-acting and should state so on the packaging.

<MaryC> I have a substitution question. I have a recipe that calls for cream of tartar and baking soda. Can I substitute this combo with baking powder? What would the proportion be?

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated>I find that chemical leavening is extremely tricky business. It is true that homemade baking powder can be made by combining soda and tartar, but I always think it best to stick with the recipe.

<dani> Some recipes call for superfine sugar. What if your supermarket doesn’t carry it? Is there a substitute?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Dani, when I want superfine sugar, I just pulse regular granulated sugar in the food processor for a few minutes and presto...instant superfine!

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> You can process granulated sugar in a food processor until it breaks down to a nice, fine consistency. Both superfine and granulated sugar weigh 7 ounces per cup.

<dani> Thank you!

<sofi> What is the rule in scaling a recipe? I have a recipe that I’d like to increase to make a bunch at the same time. I did that once and it didn’t come out right.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Multiplying recipes can be tricky. Sometimes baked goods don’t do so well when the recipe is increased. Often times, it’s best to only do single or double batches several times.

<dani> Is it true that when you double a recipe you don’t necessarily have to double the spices?

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> If it were, say, a spice cookie recipe that I was multiplying, I would certainly double the spices. If it were something where the spice flavor should be more subdued and subtle, I may not double the spices.

<TinaFCI> Have you guys tried any of the shortenings from the health food stores that aren’t as bad for you? Do they work the same? Crisco is just full of trans fats. Correct? Plus the flavor is dreadful.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I read recently in Cook’s Illustrated that Crisco is now making a shortening with 0 trans fats! I hear it’s much better than the ones they sell at the health food stores. That’s great news for those Crisco and butter pie crust fans. Would you recommend the product?

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Yes, we can recommend it.

<TinaFCI> That’s good I guess but it still leaves a horrible film in your mouth when you eat it in anything.

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> What leaves a horrible taste in your mouth?

<TinaFCI> Shortening.

<TinaFCI> I made a pie crust with shortening and butter recently and I couldn’t stand it! I think the classic pate brisée with just butter is so much better!

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Oh yeah. Not much in the way of flavor there. Also, I get scared when shortening starts listing 0 trans fat. We all know what happened with Olestra.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Olestra. Yikes.

<Patglenn> At some point in time, I quit using Crisco, but I don’t remember why. But I never noticed a horrible taste.

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> I never noticed a horrible taste either when it was mixed with butter in a pie dough.

<TinaFCI> I guess I’m thinking of what a former pastry instructor told me once. He mentioned how things cooked with shortening leaves a film on your tongue and he’s right! I guess it’s not a flavor as much as a slight “ick” factor!

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> But then again, it makes really flaky layers in the pie dough.

<msleo> Dawn, a few issues ago Cook’s Illustrated did a taste test of chocolates. I can’t find my issue. Can you tell us again what the results were?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> As for the chocolates, it was a tough tasting. The all-around winning chocolate was Ghirardelli. The other chocolate were separated into two groups: dark and rich and not so dark and rich.

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Sweeter dark chocolates included Callebaut (44% sugar), Hershey’s Special Dark, Baker’s Bittersweet, and Perugina (36% sugar). The other category is called Distinct and Bitter Dark Chocolates, and includes Lindt (70% cocoa, 28 % sugar), El Rey Gran Saman Dark (70% cocoa, 35% sugar), Valrhona Guanajas (70% cacao, 35% sugar), and lastly, Scharffen Berger (70% cacao, 33 % sugar).

<Raina_PastryScoop> PastryScoop.com will post this transcript in late December for those of you who want that chocolate information.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I recently read in your magazine that Callabaut cocoa powder came out on top for Dutch processed cocoa powders. I’m going to have to switch.

<msleo> I love the books from Cook’s Illustrated. What is your favorite thing and/or recipe in Baking Illustrated?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Favorite thing in Baking Illustrated? Well, it’s a toss up. The summer berry pie is awesome, as are the sticky buns. Then again, the corn muffins with orange sugar and apricots simply rock.

<MaryC> Is Baking Illustrated a new publication?

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Baking Illustrated in a new tome—a reference book for bakers.

<MaryC> Thanks Dawn. That sounds like it would make a nice holiday gift!

<sheny> Hi! I’m planning on make springerle for this Christmas. However, I do not have the special molds, rolling pins or stamps. How can I make some nice decorations on my cookies? Would you tell me why let them dry overnight before baking?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Ah, springerle cookies. Without any stamps or rolling pins, I would just press pretty designs into the dough. Go crazy and use anything that will make an imprint. . . dried pasta and so on. I’m not sure about the overnight drying thing. Sounds a little weird to me.

<sheny> Thank you! This drying thing sounds crazy to me too, but that’s what a German friend told me about her grandma’s recipe.

<msleo> According to a show on the Food Network this past weekend, springerle must dry overnight in order to develop the appropriate texture. They were doing a show on a German bakery.

<MaryC> I’d like to make some homemade gifts to mail out to friends and family. Can you recommend a few recipes or ideas that won’t dry out or go stale in priority mail?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Pound cakes and other the dense, moist cakes always have good shelf life and tend to hold up well under shipping.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Jams and jellies also make nice gifts and they can be enjoyed for weeks.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Shortbread cookies usually withstand shipping. And sometimes they get better with age, in my opinion.

<sofi> Does anyone know where I can find a good lemon pound cake recipe?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Cook’s Illustrated has an awesome lemon pound cake recipe which uses a food processor and comes together in minutes. It uses melted butter.

<sofi> Thanks.

<HeidiBakes> One of my favorite pound cake recipes calls for 7-Up. What does this do for the cake?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I love recipes that call for 7-up, Dr. Pepper, Coca-Cola. They always seem so fun and a little retro.

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Funny you should mention 7-Up cake. We are working on a Coca Cola cake for our new cookbook. Not sure what the soda does beyond lend sugar and liquid. We don’t think the bubbles do much. It is fun though.

<Jnyky> What adjustments do I need to make to sugar in a cookie recipe if all I can find is sweetened coconut, rather than unsweetened?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> It would depend (unfortunately) on the recipe. Did you check the bulk bins for unsweetened coconut? I often find it there.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> I would just cut the sugar back by just a bit if you’re using sweetened coconut. It might be a good idea to chop the sweetened shreds before using because they tend to be longer and stringier than unsweetened shreds.

<HeidiBakes> Is there a discernable difference between light brown sugar and dark brown sugar? Any reason why they’re not interchangeable?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Dark brown sugar has a higher moisture content and a deeper flavor than light brown sugar. You’ll see and taste a difference in the finished product if you substitute one for the other.

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> There is a difference in flavor and texture. The dark brown sugar has more molasses and a (obviously) darker color and flavor. If the amount is small (say under 1/3 cup or so) I’d bet the substitution will be fine. If substituted in larger quantities, however, the texture of the finished product might begin to change. That is, be more dry if substituting light brown sugar or more wet if substituting dark brown sugar.

<noriza> Hi Julia. I know you must have been asked this a million times, but what do you find is the easiest way to soften brown sugar?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> If it’s just slightly dry, I sprinkle with water and microwave it. I haven’t figured out a way to get really dry sugar back to life though. Anyone else?

<MaryC> Julia, what if you don’t own a microwave?

<noriza> I just keep buying new bags! It seems so wasteful.

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> I wonder if you could process the super stale brown sugar in the food processor and add bits of water to rehydrate?

<noriza> Hmm. . .it might break the blades. No?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> I don’t think it would break the blades. Unless you are working with a super cheap model.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> If you throw a slice of bread in an airtight container with the dried out brown sugar, it will come back to life in a day or two. I swear by this method!

<noriza> Is the bread moistened?

<TinaFCI> I’ve heard an apple works too.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Yes, I’ve heard that an apple will work too, but I like bread because you can simply forget about it after you add it. No, the bread is not moistened, What happens is that the hygroscopic sugar sucks all the moisture out of the bread and becomes soft again.

<HeidiBakes> I’ve heard that you can make your own brown sugar by adding molasses to white sugar?

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> You can simulate brown sugar by processing a cup of granulated with one to two tablespoons of molasses in a food processor.

<noriza> Simulating it might be a better way to go for me. I can just make it as I need it.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> When it comes to dry brown sugar. I just try to prevent the drying before it happens. When I buy brown sugar, I squeeze the box a little to make sure it hasn’t sat on the supermarket shelf for too long. It should have a little give. After each use, I roll and tape the open end of the plastic pouch that the sugar came in, turn it upside down so that the open end faces downward and then I put the whole box in a Ziploc storage bag. This is simple; it takes only a few seconds and always works for me.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I like to buy small containers of leavening and baking spices so I don’t feel guilty about tossing them when they’re too old. This also saves space and therefore I can keep a well-stocked pantry of all the basic baking ingredients and spices. I find that having things on hand makes for more fun in the kitchen and less time running around for ingredients and supplies at the last minute.

<HeidiBakes> Judiaann, is there a general rule for how long spices last?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Different spices have different shelf lives and whole spices will last longer than ground ones. As a general rule of thumb, I like to use them within 6-9 months for the best flavor. Again, buy small quantities of the ones you don’t use so often.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> I know it sounds a little crazy to mail-order spices from places like Penzey’s and the Spice House, but it’s so much cheaper and I do feel like the quality is better.

<HeidiBakes> What’s the secret to moist, chewy peanut butter cookies. Butter? Every recipe I try turns out dry ones. Underbaking slightly doesn’t seem to do the trick either.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> It sounds like you’re working with a recipe that’s not created to be chewy. There are many different factors that can determine the chewiness of a cookie recipe such as sugar content, type of sugar, baking temp, time, leavener, etc.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Cook’s Illustrated has good recipe for PB cookies!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Does Cook’s Illustrated have a favorite unsalted butter?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> We use Land O Lakes in the test kitchen. The thing about butter is that many brands are regional (like sour cream and other dairy).

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I like Land O Lakes too and it seems like you can find it just about everywhere. I also like Cabot from Vermont.

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> The secret to PB cookies that aren’t dry (I think), is to not back down on the butter even though you are adding peanut butter.

<luca> Also with cookies, non-stick pans are terrible. I find they dry everything out.

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Non-stick cookie sheets are funny to work with. You have to change the oven temperature and reduce the baking time because of their dark color.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I always bake cookies on parchment paper. It makes sticking a non-issue and clean up a snap.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Land O lakes is fine for baking and general use, but I do think that high-fat cultured butters have such incredible flavor—great for spreading on toasted or a fresh baguette!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I agree. I love a good European butter on a fresh baguette!

<luca> Where can I get unpasteurized heavy cream? Does it really make a difference in recipes that call for it?

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> I think that unpasteurized heavy cream is difficult, if not impossible, to find.

<HeidiBakes> There’s a blurb in this week’s New Yorker about a group of people in New York who were able to get their hands on unpasteurized milk. They believe it cures all sorts of ailments.

<Raina_PastryScoop> Heidi, I was about the mention that bit from the New Yorker. It seems so secretive!

<HeidiBakes> I know. It’s like some weird covert, undercover operation!

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> In my hometown, you can get unpasterized milk from the local dairy farm, but you have to go to the actual farm.

<HeidiBakes> Maybe it would be helpful to speak to the farmers at farmer’s markets—to let them know that there’s a demand for it.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Yes, I believe that almost all the cream products in the grocery stores these days are ultra-pasteurized. Some of the fresh flavors are destroyed in the process, but what can one do if there are no farms around?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Do you have a favorite brand of pure vanilla extract?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Vanilla is tricky around here. Our recent tasting found that extract tasted as good as pure vanilla in most baked goods. We all have our favorites though.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Don’t get me started on vanilla extract! Our tasting revealed that imitation is as good as the real thing and I firmly disagree.

<gromit> Do you prefer cookie sheets with or without sides? I read that without sides is better for heat circulation, but on America’s Test Kitchen, you seem to use half sheet pans with sides. Also, do you recommend convection for baking?

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> We’re at work on a cookie sheet testing. It’s good if the cookie sheet has at least one lip for easy grip. Yes, we use half sheet pans in the test kitchen and we have baked great cookies on them.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> We’re also working on convection ovens. Commercial convection ovens are different from convection ovens in the home.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Some things work better than others in convection ovens. Cookies, pastries do well; cakes not so well. I’ll have more information in a few weeks.

<Kate_PastryScoop> You both must test a ton of gadgets. Any favorites that you’d recommend for gifts to the chefs in our lives?

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> We see and use many in the test kitchen. My personal favorites—heatproof rubber spatulas, Wonder cups for measuring messy stuff like shortening and honey, and a good pair of tongs. Oh, and a good timer too.

<KL> I saw a tool similar to a bench knife only bigger, like for picking up bread. It didn’t have the long handle like a pizza peel. Does anyone know where I can buy one? Thanks.

<TinaFCI> The King Arthur Flour catalog maybe or Broadway Panhandler here in NYC.

<MaryC> I see a lot more recipes using weight measurements instead of volume/cup measurements. Do you think that more people are using scales in their kitchens and should be encouraged to use them—especially for baking?

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Honestly, I think only hardcore bakers are the ones who use scales in cooking. I think a digital scale is the best way to ensure consistently good results.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I love using a digital scale. Once you have one, you’ll find that you’ll use it all the time. You can switch from grams to ounces and back and forth and zero out the container so you can weigh out different ingredients in the same bowl. I even use it to scale meat and other savory items.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> I agree with Judiaann. A good digital scale is indispensable—especially for bakers!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Do you have any recommendations for not-to-be-missed recipes to try in Baking Illustrated?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Recipes not to be missed: summer berry pie, cherry cobbler, NY cheesecake, sticky buns. . .

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Oh, I could go on. . .

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Sticky buns! Yum.

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> They are among the best I’ve had.

<Adam> I want to know if sea salt can be replaced in recipes or is it best to use kosher salt?

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Sea salt should be finely ground before use. Straight out of the package it’s usually pretty coarse. And use less of it than you would kosher. Kosher grains are light and fluffy and weigh less (teaspoon for teaspoon) compared to finely ground salts.

<TinaFCI> If you bake with kosher salt, do you increase the amount by much?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Kosher salt is tricky because it depends on the brand. Diamond Crystal brand to table salt is 2 to 1, but Morton’s Kosher to table is 1 1/2 to 1.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Be careful when you use kosher salt in baking. If the recipe doesn’t contain much liquid, like with a pate sucrée, then you risk having salt pockets in the dough because the grains don’t have a chance to dissolve.

<TinaFCI> My friend has been baking with kosher salt because she likes the flavor but she hasn’t adjusted the amounts.

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> You can, however, pretty easily crumble kosher salt grains between the fingers before use it in baking.

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> If you are using yet another brand of kosher salt (David’s is another popular one, for example) I would weight it against a cup of table to determine the ratio. The crystal sizes can vary dramatically.

<TinaFCI> So you guys just use table salt?

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Yes. It dissolves more quickly and has a standard crystal size that is easy to measure.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I like to keep both fine and kosher on hand. I use fine for all baking and kosher for everything else. Salt is cheap, has an indefinite shelf life, and doesn’t take up too much room in the cupboard.

<Julia_CooksIllustrated> Any last comments, questions, or thoughts? The kitchen is a calling. . .

<Raina_PastryScoop> Thank you for chatting with us today Julia and Dawn. The time flew by so quickly!

<Dawn_CooksIllustrated> Indeed it did! Happy cooking (and baking) to everyone!

<Raina_PastryScoop> Please join us again on Dec. 15 when we chat with Tara Bench, senior editor from Martha Stewart Living.

BACK TO CHATS