PastryScoop.com Online Chat Transcript

Joan Nathan
November 13, 2003

<Kate_PastryScoop> Hello, and welcome to PastryScoop.com's chat with Joan Nathan, author of several books including The Foods of Israel . She is here to talk about Jewish holiday baking today.

<Annie> I need to make a dessert for my Hanukkah party-what do you suggest?

<Joan Nathan> The most popular dessert for Hanukkah is Soufganiot, which are jelly doughnuts. I often have the dough made so the children can then fry them. I also make cranberry nut torte. There is a recipe for the soufganiot in my Foods of Israel .

<Angela_PastryScoop> That sounds so delicious, Joan!

<Joan Nathan> Hanukkah is also a time for lots of cookies and making things like Hanukkah dreidels out of gingerbread.

<ChefTina> Is there a mold for making gingerbread dreidels?

<Joan Nathan> There is not a mold for making dreidels, but in my Children's Jewish Holiday Kitchen , it shows you how. I make one as a decoration.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Chef Tina, someone asked me the other day if you can freeze and reheat a bread pudding successfully. What do you think?

<ChefTina> Although it can be done, I feel the texture of custard-based desserts may change after being frozen. I think bread pudding is something that is always best fresh.

<tciccarini> I would like some ideas for a dessert menu for the holiday season.

<ChefTina> What type of menu are you interested in? Desserts for plating, or whole cakes and tarts, those types of things?

<tciccarini> Desserts for plating.

<Joan Nathan> For a dessert for plating, I would make a cranberry nut torte.

<Annie> Can you use any kind of nut?

<Joan Nathan> I use walnuts, but you could use pecans as well.

<Annie> When making sugar cookies, must you refrigerate the dough?

<ChefTina> It is very important to refrigerate sugar dough before baking.

<Annie> Oh, for how long?

<ChefTina> It needs to refrigerate until it is completely chilled, depending on the refrigerator; an hour or two is probably enough.

<tciccarini> I am new as a pastry chef, and I would like some ideas.

<ChefTina> I always begin by thinking about flavors and other seasonal items, from there you can come up with great holiday desserts. For winter holidays, think about chestnuts, cranberries, citrus, quince, pears, and apples, which are great right now. Also think about spices; this is a great time of year for using spices and nuts. If you start by thinking of basic flavors your options are endless.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Is there something unique about the dough for Soufganiots, or can I use any yeast doughnut dough?

<Joan Nathan> I use a dough that can sit in the refrigerator overnight. Any good yeast dough with lots of eggs and butter will do. The dough uses yeast, flour, eggs, milk, and butter with lemon zest. I let it rise and then keep it in the refrigerator overnight. Then I make the donuts, fry them, and use a tiny spoon to insert the jelly. You could also use a syringe.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Freshly fried is always best, but how far in advance can I fry them? Any hints on keeping them fresh?

<Joan Nathan> I agree freshly fried is the best, however I sometimes make them in the morning and keep them out all day. Alternatively, you can fry them way ahead and freeze them and then put them in the oven, about 350 degrees.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Thanks. That sounds like a big time saver.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Joan, do you know how pastry chefs and bakers can get kosher certified?

<Joan Nathan>Yes, you can go to a kosher certifier like the Orthodox Union. They have to carefully scrutinize what you are doing. If you are using dairy, then no meat products whatsoever can be used. The kitchen must be koshered, and then they will come to watch what you are doing until they feel confident. Also you must have a mashkiach on the premises to watch over what you are doing.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Does no meat include no eggs?

<Joan Nathan> Eggs are neutral. They can be used with milk or meat.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> If I wanted to surprise my friend with a classic Jewish holiday treat, what would you suggest?

<Joan Nathan> Depends on the season. There are so many... rugelach, apple cake, hamentashen.

<Angela_PastryScoop> Are rugelach easy to make? I love them.

<Joan Nathan> Rugelach are so easy to make. Do you want a recipe?

<Angela_PastryScoop> Of course! They are always a crowd pleaser. Especially chocolate.

<Joan Nathan>This is a great recipe:

8 ounces cream cheese, 2 sticks unsalted butter, 2 cups flour, confectioners' sugar for dusting.

Chocolate filling: 1 cup bittersweet chocolate, shaved, 1/4 cup sugar.

Make the dough in a Kitchen Aid, and refrigerate for about 2 hours. Roll into four balls, which you will roll out into four circles. Cut dough into 16 pie shaped pieces. Spread the chocolate filling, and roll up from wide side to the center. Bake in a 350 degree oven for 25 minutes, switching in the middle. Dust with confectioner's sugar. It makes 64 tiny rugelach. You can also fill it with nuts and with raspberry or thick apricot jam. You can also freeze the rugalach.

<Angela_PastryScoop> Thanks Joan. That is really great.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Fantastic! I'm going to make some next week.

<Red> Please excuse my ignorance, but what Jewish holiday best suits this recipe, or is there no specific one?

<Joan Nathan> Every holiday, but Passover you can't serve rugelach. You can't at Passover because you can't use regular flour.

<Red> Thank you.

<Joan Nathan>Another recipe I really like is chocolate babka. That is really delicious.

<Angela_PastryScoop> The babka would be a good thing to bring to a party for the host.

<Joan Nathan>Kuchen Bucehm is a delicious variation of babka that I learned in Baltimore.

<KimH> Hello. What is babka?

<Joan Nathan> Babka is a yeast cake from Eastern Europe often filled with chocolate. It is delicious. Usually people make them dry, but my recipe is moist.

<KimH> Thanks.

<noriza> Joan, do you have a website, and if you do, are some of these wonderful recipes available there???

<Joan Nathan> No, I don't have a website, but Maryland Public Television has a site with lots of information. Also, google search with my name. You can also buy my cookbooks!

<noriza> I will do that, Joan!! Thanks!!!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> What are some classic Passover desserts?

<Joan Nathan> Passover, my favorite holiday. Lots of nuts and chocolate tortes. Chocolate covered matzah is one, almond Lemon Torte, coconut nut torte.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> So instead of regular flour, you use matzo meal or substitute ground nuts?

<Joan Nathan> Instead of regular flour you use matzo meal, ground nuts or matzah cake meal. At my Passover Seder, I always serve chocolate torte, almond lemon torte and a fried chremslel. These are dumplings also. I had a delicious tishpishti, an orange-honey cake which is Sephardic, and I used it in the New York Times at Passover.

<RENATTA> Can you recommend any sugar free dessert for holiday treat?

<Joan Nathan> Fruit compotes are great, and you don't have to have any sugar in them.

<Angela_PastryScoop> You know who has a great sugar free (and kosher) dessert is Eileen's Special Cheesecake in NYC. She'll Fed Ex anywhere in the US. 1-800-521-CAKE or www.eileenscheesecake.com .

<Joan Nathan> That sounds good.

<RENATTA> Thank you.

<Red> I found a great cheese cake recipe the other day... learned a lot in the past few months.

<Joan Nathan> I have a really good lemon cheesecake recipe.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> People ask me all the time how to prevent cheesecakes from cracking. Any suggestions?

<Joan Nathan> You open the oven door and let it cool awhile after it has baked. It slowly cools. You can always cover it with strawberries.

<ChefTina> I also think that cracking occurs when cheesecakes are over baked and/or baked too quickly.

<Red> Are these recipes also in your Baker book?

<Joan Nathan> The recipes are in my baking book and some in my Foods of Israel and Jewish Cooking In America . I keep trying new recipes because I interview authentic, old, good cooks and try to continue their recipes in a new way.

<Red> Good idea Joan ... I am using my family as guinea pigs ... they don't seem to mind!

<noriza> It must be wonderful when you are talking with some of the older cooks, and they "divulge" a long-held family recipe, like finding a treasure.

<Red> That's the way I feel.

<Joan Nathan> Me too.

<Joan Nathan>They divulge recipes to me because I am going to make them immortal. Very often they won't reveal them to family members.

<noriza> That is great!!!!

<Joan Nathan> I feel as if the only way we are going to maintain our individuality as a society is to have these old recipes carried on.

<noriza> I would think it would be hard to write it all down fast enough!!!!!!

<Joan Nathan> It is hard. I usually bring my laptop with me and a measuring cup. You have to stop them.

<Red> Plus some older ladies give me recipes more so because I am male ... they like the fact that guys will be baking.

<Joan Nathan> Great! Guys should be baking!

<Red> I like the uniqueness in the fact I am a male baker.

<noriza> I also think they may see a guy baking as not as big a "threat" to their domestic prowess!!!!

<Joan Nathan> You are onto something. I think these older cooks are threatened by other family members, especially when they are old.

<ChefTina> Red, you will be happy to know that we are enrolling more and more men of all ages into our professional pastry course, here at FCI.

<Joan Nathan> What do you like to bake?

<Red> Been doing pies mostly ... always trying new crusts.

<Joan Nathan> Any tips for me?

<Angela_PastryScoop> This is the best time of the year for pies

<Red> I have a new bakery just started...so I am collecting any and all recipes old and new.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Yes, pies! I'm on a mission to find the ultimate apple pie recipe. I've been baking a pie a week for the last 8 weeks and taking very careful notes each time. I'm getting very close. I love pies, and it's hard to find good examples.

<Angela_PastryScoop> Red: where is your bakery?

<Red> Small town in Ohio. I have another location opening soon ...well I hope.

<Angela_PastryScoop> Red: come on, plug the bakery. You never know if someone on this chat is going to be in Ohio looking for pie!

<Red> It's called SweetTreats.Com, in Sycamore and Fostoria, Ohio.

<Joan Nathan> Red, is it an online bakery?

<Red> Not yet, still fledgling; it is a computer cafe and bakery.

<noriza> My grandmother was from Russia, and she taught me to make challah. That started me on the road.

<Joan Nathan> Great. Did she have any recipes?

<noriza> But when I mastered it, more or less, she got very critical of my breads, and I realized later that she must have been threatened, sort of, because that was her claim to fame in her family.

<Joan Nathan> Noriza, you are absolutely right. People can't believe that they share with me. But I am no threat to their daily life.

<Joan Nathan> Challah is the best. And it is best homemade. I use 2 eggs, 1/2 cup oil. 1 3/4 cup water, 1/2 cup sugar, about 8 cups flour and 1 tablespoon of salt. I let it rise overnight. I think a slow rise is very good. I use leftovers for bread pudding or french toast.

<Angela_PastryScoop> I made your apple honey cake for Yom Kippur. It was so tasty.

<Joan Nathan> Which one?

<Angela_PastryScoop> I think I found it on-line

<Joan Nathan> Apple desserts are very big in the Jewish repertoire, probably because most of us came from central and eastern Europe and had apples all year round. I have some great apple cakes. There was an old recipe I learned in Israel called a grated apple torte.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Hey apple pie lovers, have you tried baking with Macouns? I like using a mix of Macouns and Cortlands.

<Red> I get excited when the smells (the good ones) come from the ovens.

<Joan Nathan> You know, you should taste an apple before you use it. Macouns and Cortlands are great, and a mix is so good as well. With farmers markets in the area, it's so much fun.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Yes, I've been chatting up all the farmers at the market for their recommendations. Joan, do you have a favorite apple(s) for baking?

<Red> When tasting, the sweeter the better? Or tart?

<Joan Nathan> How about making apple strudel. I learned from the family that invented the strudel. It is in the Foods of Israel Today .

<Red> Want to go there Joan, but still looking for a good breading for it.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I learned how to make the most incredible apple strudel at The French Culinary Institute. One of the chef-instructors is from Austria, and he showed us how to make something like 20 different kinds of strudel!

<noriza> I find baking to be the most calming thing I could ever do.

<Joan Nathan> I couldn't agree with you more. I feel connected to my roots and to my soul when I touch dough.

<noriza> I am married to a Greek, so I have been trying so many wonderful old world recipes for all the celebration breads that they have. I feel like I am on a treasure hunt.

I wish I had more time to do the actual baking.

<Joan Nathan> You can always do baking in steps, depending on your time. I think of my day and when I can work on whatever. I mean I fit baking into my schedule.

<noriza> I understand. I think I have to be more organized in my thinking and planning.

<Joan Nathan> You do, but once you start it's easy. For example, tonight I have 20 people for dinner.

<Angela_PastryScoop> Noriza: that's one of the best lessons I learned at The French Culinary Institute...it's to prioritize and make a schedule for baking. At work and at home.

<ChefTina> Thinking and planning are the first steps to becoming a great baker. This is something we like to focus on when teaching our classes here at FCI.

<Joan Nathan> You got it.

<noriza> I guess I am not thinking ahead much, when it comes to baking, I wait for the "urge" to hit me!!!!

<Joan Nathan> Noriza, I have to go back to cooking. I am testing recipes.

<maya> Hi, I'd like to ask about an Arab bread that's been sold in the old city of Jerusalem. It is like baigal but with lots of sesame seeds. I have been trying to make it a few times, can you tell me how? Should the dough be very sticky?

<Joan Nathan> Oh I love that pita with za'atar on top. It is very easy to make and one of the oldest breads to mankind. Here is the recipe: 1 tablespoon yeast, 1 cup water, 1/2 teaspoon sugar. Add 1 teaspoon salt, 3 1/2 cups flour, 1/2 cup butter. Let it rise for an hour, divide the dough into balls and shape into 10 inch long snakelike pieces. Twist into rings, pinching the ends together. Place on baking sheet and bake for 20 minutes in a 375 degree oven.

<maya> I have both of your books, and I was very impressed with them. I am Israeli myself.

<Joan Nathan>Maya, thanks.

<Angela_PastryScoop> Thank you so much Joan this was very helpful as we get into the holiday season.

<Joan Nathan>This was lots of fun. Let's do it again.

<Kate_PastryScoop> Joan, this is so helpful. I think we've all learned so much!

<noriza> Please let's do this again!!!!!

<Joan Nathan> Thank you all for being here with me.

<Kate_PastryScoop> Thank you!