PastryScoop.com Cutting Edge Equipment and Ingredient Chat

Dave Arnold of The French Culinary Institute and Food Arts
February 12, 2007

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Hi, everyone. Welcome to our first chat for 2007. I'm delighted to introduce our guest today… DAVE ARNOLD!!! Dave is the director of culinary technology at The French Culinary Institute and also the food science and technology editor at Food Arts magazine.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Hi, Dave.

<Dave Arnold> Hi.

<Judiaann PastryScoop> Please feel free to ask any questions that you might have.

<Dave Arnold> Anyone?

<Barbara> First, could Dave tell us a bit about himself?

<Dave Arnold> I am basically a gear head that can also do some science work.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> For those of you who don't know, Dave works with some of the most innovative chefs in NYC helping them with custom equipment and such.

<Shobna> What are your latest findings in pastry equipment?

<Dave Arnold> What type of pastry equipment?

<Angrymonkey> How does a freeze dryer work?

<Dave Arnold> Freeze drying works by having ice crystals convert directly from ice to water vapor so a product can dry out without losing its shape.

<Dave Arnold> I like the use of vacuum technology a lot.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Dave, didn't you design your own vacuum dryer?

<Dave Arnold> Yes, but I'm still working on it.

<Dave Arnold> I like vacuum technology in general because you can do distillation and evaporation at low temperatures without changing flavors.

<Angrymonkey> How can I make a machine that bastes mini corndogs like baumkuchen?

<Dave Arnold> Howdy, Johnny.

<Angrymonkey> Hola.

<Dave Arnold> Come in to The FCI and we'll build one. I would have a microprocessor controlled system with a dosing pump to automatically meter the batter onto the corndogs.

<Dave Arnold> I would use meat glue to bind the dogs together.

<Peter> What is the food science behind making fruit caviars?

<Dave Arnold> Fruit caviars are most commonly made with sodium alginate. The alginate stays liquid until it reacts with calcium. When you drop the liquid in a calcium bath it sets.

<Dave Arnold> Do you have a more specific question on alginates?

<Peter> Why does the alginate set in the calcium chloride?

<Dave Arnold> The calcium question is too hard to explain here. Go to the ISP website and search for the Alginate Technical Users Guide. It has a good explanation.

<Angrymonkey> Where do chefs stand with sous vide regulations?

<Dave Arnold> Well, Mr. Monkey, the sous vide issue is still in flux, but we are working at The FCI to figure it out for you guys.

<Peter> Who has the best and cheapest sous vide equipment?

<Dave Arnold> When you say sous vide equipment do you mean the vacuum or the circulator?

<Peter> I guess both vacuum and circulator.

<Dave Arnold> I am not allowed to endorse a product, but go to www.polyscience.com for the circulator. Most of the good commercial chamber machines work well.

<Peter> Thanks.

<pastrychic101> Hi, Dave. I'm a student at Johnson & Wales University and I am curious to know what exactly the future is in desserts.

<angrymonkey> Do you think "molecular gastronomy" is a fad or is it here to stay?

<Dave Arnold> I detest the word "molecular gastronomy." I hope the term is a fad, but the movement towards using science and technology to make better food is here to stay.

<LewFite> Is there any difference or advantage to using kuzu (kudzu powder) over corn starch?

<Dave Arnold> I don't use kuzu, but there are many different types of starch derived from every source. There are dozens and dozens of corn starches all with their own properties. The best place to go for starch is National Starch.

<Jimmy> Hello. Can you help us find sources for products like gellans?

<Dave Arnold> Gellan is made by CP Kelco. They are setting up distribution through Le Sanctuaire in California.

<Dave Arnold> There are two types, high acyl and low acyl. They can be mixed together to obtain gel properties between the two extremes.

<LewFite> I have variable results making peanut brittle. When should I put the raw Spanish peanuts into the sugar syrup?

<Dave Arnold> I'm sorry, I haven't done any work with peanut brittle, but what is the problem you are having?

<LewFite> Either chewy or the peanuts overcook and have slightly burned flavor.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Angrymonkey: Maybe you have an answer for the peanut brittle question?

<angrymonkey> Personally, I like to pre-toast my peanuts and add them at the very end when the sugar is cooked and stir them in just before I pour it out to stretch.

<LewFite> Thank you, Angrymonkey. Excellent and should solve variations due to temp moisture in peanuts. Thank you, thank you.

<Jimmy> What chemical(s) makes for the easiest spherification?

<Dave Arnold> Alginate. But I don't like the texture and flavor release. To get good flavor out of an alginate system requires some work.

<Jimmy> What is the cleanest ingredient for spheres?

<Dave Arnold> What do you mean cleanest?

<Jimmy> Better flavor.

<NhumiSD> Gellan works and it does not give off flavors.

<Dave Arnold> Good sources for alginates: ISP, TIC Gums, or you can buy the system sold by Ferran Adrià for starters.

<Dave Arnold> Spheres can be made by any technique that allows the rapid change of a product from liquid to gel. Gellan makes good spheres, and agar (set in cold oil) can make good spheres. There are also alginates that have better flavor release. Tell me a "mouthfeel" you like and we can figure out what gel to use.

<Jimmy> My needs for "feel" range. But overall, smooth mouthfeel, bursts of flavor (liquid), and non-residual texture.

<Dave_Arnold> Gellan is probably how you should go.

<Dave_Arnold> Gellan is nice because as it shears. It tastes almost like it is melting even though it is not.

<Jimmy> Thanks, Dave. Can you give us basic guidelines as how other ingredients react with gellans or cause them to require high or low acyl?

<Dave_Arnold> NhumiSD, why don't you talk about the gellan issue?

<NhumiSD> Depends on the texture you like. High acyl gellan will give a rubbery texture and low acyl is brittle, somewhat like agar.

<NhumiSD> Low acyl gellan is sensitive to salts, so depends on the salt level of your system. It's best to remove ions from water, then hydrate your gums.

<Jimmy> What are good uses for locust bean and guar gum?

<Dave Arnold> LBG and guar are thickeners. LBG is also used synergistically to gel with xanthan and K-carrageenan.

<NhumiSD> Hi Dave, what are some of the new functionalities chefs are looking for?

<Dave Arnold> What do you mean functionalities?

<NhumiSD> Suspension, gelling, texture. Suspension at higher temperatures.

<Dave Arnold> Are you having trouble suspending something in a gellan solution at high temps?

<Dave Arnold> Most suspension/fluid gel problems can be solved by making the density of the main fluid and the particles very similar.

<Chloe> Hi Dave, what are the best substances to use on an anti-griddle?

<Dave Arnold> I don't know. I like the anti-griddle but have seen it used mainly to make liquid center frozen pancakes or lollipops.

<Dave Arnold> I think the anti-griddle would be cool to use as an instant chiller for seared products when doing sous vide work, and I think I could come up with some pretty cool cocktail garnishes with it.

<Jimmy> What are uses for methocel food gum SGA150?

<Dave Arnold> The SG series of methocels are great. They are great for chefs but are a pain in the butt for processors because of their low gel temp.

<NhumiSD> Dave, what do chefs use methocels for?

<Dave Arnold> Methocel, as you know, gels when heated, which is cool. Angrymonkey and I have developed a cake recipe that uses SG to set a cake without leavener and without whipped egg white into a sponge cake texture.

<Dave Arnold> The cake can also be cut hot—right out of the oven.

<NhumiSD> How did you aerate the cake? Did you use some lecithin or protein?

<Dave Arnold> We aerated the cake with an iSi whipped cream can.

<NhumiSD> I see.

<LewFite> Where can a panning attachment for Kitchen Aid mixer be located?

<Dave Arnold> I forget the name of the company that makes the panning attachment. They are not cheap which is why I don't own one yet.

<LewFite> I saw the panning device once demonstrated on a Jacque Torres FoodTV show but could never locate it.

<Dave Arnold> I located the panning attachment on a candy making website but I don't remember which one.

<LewFite> Thank you, thank you!

<Jimmy> Where is an industrial source for data on all of this?

<Dave Arnold> The companies that produce the gums have all the data, and some are pretty good about giving it out. We are doing a course here on hydrocolloids at The FCI in March as well.

<Dave Arnold> Back to the methocel question. Most chefs I know use methocel F50 for its great foam forming characteristics. You can make a foam, dry it into a meringue, etc.

<NhumiSD> Dave, Can I ask who supplies your hydrocolloid?

<Dave Arnold> We get gellan straight from CP Kelco. We get products from ISP, TIC, Dow, National Starch, etc.

<Jimmy> Can you tell us good uses for methylcellulose?

<Dave Arnold> The two methocels I would get first are f50 for foaming and SGA7 for temperature gelling.

<Dave Arnold> The trick with methocels is making sure they are hydrated properly.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Dave, I hear you do cool things with carbonated cocktails. Can you explain? Something about carbonating the alcohol?

<Dave Arnold> Next to my family, bubbles (carbonation) is the thing closest to my heart.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Where does one get such bubbles?

<Dave Arnold> I directly carbonate alcohol so that drinks don't taste watered down.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Doesn't that make for a really strong drink?!

<Dave Arnold> Yes, the drinks are quite strong, but they drink like they are not, which has been an issue for some of my friends.

<Dave Arnold> I use a 20 pound CO₂ tank. The same one you would find in any restaurant with a carbonator and bar gun.

<Raina PastryScoop> The CO₂ tank only weights 20 pounds? It feels like a torpedo.

<Dave Arnold> The gas inside weighs 20 pounds.

<Jimmy> Have you used chocolate and chemicals much?

<Dave Arnold> Chemicals, yes. Chocolate, no.

<Jimmy> Sorry, I meant chocolate and chemicals together.

<Dave Arnold> No, not much, not yet. I am very interested in cocoa butter, however.

<Peter> Room 4 Dessert had a nice foam made with white chocolate.

<Dave Arnold> I hear that some people are putting chocolate in a vacuum machine and allowing it to expand and set in the machine. Is that what they are doing?

<Peter> Not sure, but it looked like a foam to me.

<Dave Arnold> There are some studies on foamed chocolate using a vacuum, and I heard some chefs were using it, but I don't know who.

<Foodie> Speaking of cocoa butter, do you know about mycryo (or beurre de cacao) from Barry Callebaut? It's powdered cocoa butter and is used to sprinkle on foods before sautéing or something like that.

<Dave Arnold> That stuff is terrific. Sam Mason also uses an atomized chocolate powder and says he will never use cocoa powder again.

<Peter> Where do you get atomized chocolate powder?

<Dave Arnold> I forget, but if Angrymonkey is still here he would know.

<angrymonkey> Cacao Noel, carried by Paris Gourmet. 69% cacao fat.

<Jimmy> We're setting chocolate gellies with agar and powdered cocoa butter. If you take a high water ratio ganache you can whip air into it and set it over an iced Kitchen Aid bowl.

<Dave Arnold> Does the product feel like chocolate or like a gellied chocolate?

<Jimmy> The chocolate gel we serve cold and tastes clean with chocolate flavor and no fat residue (we add spice and other ingredients). Also, check out beta 6 cocoa butter crystals from AUI.

<NhumiSD> Jimmy, can you elaborate on what the cocoa butter does in your application?

<Jimmy> Cocoa butter takes the place of gelatin. Not only is the taste better, it combines better with chocolate and can be scooped.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Dave will be teaching some classes at The French Culinary Institute for those who are interested. If you've never seen Dave in person—in action—let's just say it's a real treat!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> This link will provide you with more information: http://www.frenchculinary.com/jump_continuing_education.htm.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Dave, what are some topics that you plan to cover in your upcoming classes?

<Dave Arnold> We are going to do tranglutaminase (meat glue), hydrocolloids, sous vide, and "how to think scientifically without being a scientist" which will be with Harold McGee.

<Porche> Are there books you can recommend or would you consider doing distance learning classes for those of us who can't make it to NYC regularly?

<Dave Arnold> I don't know about distance classes. For books on hydrocolloids and starches, etc., check out the Eagan press handbook series.

<NhumiSD> Beta 6 crystals—is that the most stable form crystal? Is it expensive?

<Jimmy> The beta 6 is expensive. But to temper, for example, you only need 1% of the chocolate weight. So it is economical.

<Foodie> When you mentioned bubbles earlier, is it true that you can "make" a sparkling wine out of a still wine with the iSi foamer? Does it end up tasting fine?

<Dave Arnold> Yes, but I don't recommend using the foamer for that application because it doesn't give you a whole lot of control.

<Dave Arnold> The difference between 20, 25, and 30 psi on a wine is tremendous. If you are using a foamer with cartridges you have to be very careful about fill levels, etc.

<Dave Arnold> The wine tastes great. You can make any wine sparkling, sometimes to great effect. I like Rieslings.

<Jimmy> Dave, what other ways are there to create bubbles?

<Dave Arnold> There are many ways to create bubbles and CO₂ is not the only option. N₂O is the obvious other choice.

<Chloe> What other substances can be dusted with tapioca maltodextrin besides bacon?

<Dave Arnold> I don't use tapioca maltodextrin for dusting. Rather I use it to turn oils and fats into dust. Any water free oil or fat can be turned to powder with TMD.

<NhumiSD> Dave, what is the ratio that you use to make the TMD?

<Dave Arnold> Unlike most hydrocolloid use, the tapioca maltodextrin I just do by eye. I have never had to write a recipe for service so I don't know the ratio. TMD's main property is its extreme low density.

<Dave Arnold> Tapioca Maltodextrin is sold by National Starch under the name NSorbit or NZorbit, something like that.

<Foodie> Hi, Judiaann. I was your date at the James Beard Awards.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Hi, Foodie (or should I say GARY?).

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Or were you my other date????? Ha ha.

<Foodie> Damn, you gave me away!

<angrymonkey> Hi, Gary. Sorry I missed you on Valentine's Day.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Gary is a senior editor at Food Arts. Say hi to the people, Gary.

<Foodie> Hi, people.

<Jimmy> Have you found any new uses for old equipment?

<Dave Arnold> I am an old equipment junkie. Almost anything can be retasked and put to good use.

<Raina_PastryScoop> Weren't you retooling a microwave at some point?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Something was glowing in that microwave! Can you explain?

<Dave Arnold> I was working on Microwave Vacuum Dehydration (MVD), but was not overly successful. It is used commercially to dehydrate grapes, etc.

<Dave Arnold> The glowing was caused by plasma forming on the surface of the food in the partially evacuated chamber.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I guess all that experimentation pays off because you seem to come up with some really unusual techniques.

<Jimmy> Have you had or know of allergic reactions to any food chemicals?

<Dave Arnold> Most of the hydrocolloids, etc. are hypoallergenic.

<Dave Arnold> Some people, of course, believe that they are allergic to MSG, but other folks, like Jeffrey Steingarten think the MSG thing is in people's heads.

<Foodie> You sent me to the dictionary with that "hypoallergenic" reference. What a great word. Who knew?

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Unfortunately, our time is almost up. Any final questions for Dave?

<Dave Arnold> Any last questions before they kick me off?

<Porche> Thank you for all the information!

<Peter> Thanks, this has been great.

<Jimmy> Thanks, Dave, for all the great info!

<Dave Arnold> My pleasure

<Peter> Any last minute philosophy?

<Dave Arnold> If you are using technology to make better food you are doing a good thing. If you are using it just as a gimmick, you aren't.

<angrymonkey> Whatever you do make sure it is delicious.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> That's a very good point. Don't do crazy just for crazy's sake.

<NhumiSD> Thank you all, very informative.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Thank you all for joining us today.

<angrymonkey> Thanks, Dave. You are my hero.

<Jimmy> Please, more chats like this!!!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Thank you Dave for all your good information!

<Foodie> Over and out. Now I know what to do with my Rieslings.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Thanks, Foodie, for joining us.

<Dave Arnold> Angrymonkey, have you been tossing stuff around?

<angrymonkey> Smearing.

<Dave Arnold> I knew it. Too bad we can’t use the monkey's real name.

<NhumiSD> Bye and thanks, Dave and The FCI.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Thanks, NhumsiSD. It's great to see you on the chat.

<NhumiSD> Judiaann, when is the class again?

<Dave Arnold> Both hydrocolloids and meat glue classes are in March. I don't know the first sous vide date. McGee is in the summer.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Our conference will be on Sunday, May 20th. Check back in a few weeks and we'll have all our workshops posted online.

<NhumiSD> Thanks.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Bye, everyone. Thanks again.

<Dave Arnold> Sorry I am so bad at typing.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Awww, you're not bad, Dave.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> You did great.

<Dave Arnold> Thanks.