PastryScoop.com Online Chat Transcript

PJ Hamel of King Arthur Flour
November 25, 2003

<Kate_PastryScoop> Welcome to today's chat with PJ Hamel of King Arthur Flour. She is the editor of King Arthur's catalogue and contributing editor of their new cookbook.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Angela and I keep talking about hopping in the car to visit you folks up there!

<Angela_PastryScoop> We need to pick up our flour for holiday baking!

<PJ Hamel> Well, come on up! Anytime, we'd love to see you.

<Kate_PastryScoop> She is here today to talk about a favorite holiday dessert-pies!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I keep hearing and reading all these wonderful reviews for your new cookbook.

<sofi> Hi, I'm interested in baking an Italian ricotta cheese pie that has both top and bottom crusts. Which type of dough should I use?

<PJ Hamel> Sofi, I would use what's called a "pasta frolla," which is a sweet, cookie-like Italian pastry crust. You should be able to find a recipe quite easily just by looking up "pasta frolla."

<sofi> Thank you! I'll try that. These are popular in Massachusetts but unheard of in Georgia...

<PJ Hamel> And actually, The King Arthur Flour Baker's Companion has a good ricotta pie recipe using a pate sucre, which is basically the same as pasta frolla.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I hope you're ready because I have a lot of questions. I've been baking a pie a week since September! I'm on a mission to perfect my favorite all time favorite dessert.

<NhumiSD> Wow! A pie a week

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> So what's this I hear about your all-weather, no-fail pie crust using an egg and vinegar?

<PJ Hamel> Well, Judiaann, I can't say "never fail"-operator error is always a possibility! But I like to use an egg for part of the liquid, as I feel it gives the dough more structure when you're rolling it out, plus it adds a bit of fat. The vinegar is to tenderize the gluten in the flour. Here's a crust recipe using an egg: 1 3/4 cups medium-protein flour (10.5% or so); 1/2 teaspoon salt; 1/2 cup lard OR 1/4 cup each unsalted butter and vegetable shortening; 2 teaspoons vinegar; 2 tablespoons milk; 1 large egg, lightly beaten.

Make it as you usually would, sprinkling the vinegar over the dry ingredients (and fat), then mixing the egg and milk, and drizzling it in, tossing till it's the right consistency.

<KimH> Thanks, I will definitely try this soon!

<PJ Hamel> The key to any crust, I think, is getting the liquid/flour ratio just right. Too much liquid, too sticky to roll; too little liquid, it cracks and falls apart. I like to add liquid just till the crust can be squeezed together and held-then add another tablespoon or so, so it's closer to sticky than to dry.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I've been having good results using a traditional butter, shortening recipe. What's your favorite?

<PJ Hamel> Judiaann, I keep changing my mind about a favorite. Currently I do one with half butter, half vegetable shortening, plus baking powder, plus buttermilk powder (again, to tenderize the gluten, plus add some flavor). I just made a custard pie and butterscotch meringue pie this weekend using that crust, and they were very good.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> I also like to use a combination of AP and cake flour.

<sofi> Does anyone know where I can buy invert sugar for baking? Also, if I want to substitute regular sugar with invert sugar what should be the amount? Thanks.

<Angela_PastryScoop> Maybe you can try some of the companies listed on PastryScoop.com "Resources" under the LOOK IT UP section? Not sure if those companies carry it, but it's worth a shot.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Sofi, if your recipe only calls for a small amount of invert sugar, I've gotten away with substituting corn syrup without any dire results.

<ChefVangarde> Sofi: you can get invert sugar at The Culinary Source. Phone number is 407-522-9099.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> When making apple pies, do you prefer to use flour or cornstarch as a thickener?

<PJ Hamel>> Actually, I prefer to use Instant ClearJel, or the new one that's on Chef2Chef all the time, Signature Secrets Culinary Thickener. They're both a modified food starch, but both make a filling with a lovely amount of "gel," and no cloudiness.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Can you purchase ClearJel in small quantities?

<PJ Hamel> Judiaann, yes, ClearJel is available at a number of sources. I'd check online. Baker's Catalogue sells it in 8-ounce bags.

<TinaFCI> I have a question-I made a trial pumpkin pie last week that was delicious, using canned pumpkin. I intend to make the same pie for Thanksgiving, but my friend wants to use fresh pumpkin. Will the pie be hugely different in terms of texture and flavor?

<PJ Hamel> Tina, I've never made a fresh pumpkin pie. However, canned pumpkin has no additives (thickeners, spices), so if you manage to cook and puree your fresh pumpkin so that it looks like the canned stuff, I imagine the consistency of the pie will be the same, albeit probably with better flavor.

<TinaFCI> Thanks! We'll see! At least I know the crust is good...

<Deb> I have made pumpkin pies with fresh pumpkin-be sure to use a cheese pumpkin or sugar pumpkin, not a jack-o-lantern.

<Angela_PastryScoop> I make my pumpkin bread with fresh puree using sugar pumpkins.

<TinaFCI> Thanks Deb. I think she is using a cheese pumpkin.

<PJ Hamel> Angela and Deb, do you have to cook down the pumpkin a lot? Is it really watery to begin with?

<Deb> I roast the pumpkin and put in through a food mill. If it seems watery I drain it in a cheesecloth lined sieve.

<TinaFCI> That probably has great flavor!

<Angela_PastryScoop> I roast it in the oven and then puree it with some spices and a little orange juice to get it smooth. It tends to be more watery than the canned puree.

<TinaFCI> Angela, that sounds yummy too!

<Deb> If you make the puree in advance and freeze it, as I often do, it can get watery and would need to be drained.

<NhumiSD> Are all the recipes in the King Arthur Flour Baker's Companion all tried and tested?

<PJ Hamel>Nhumi, yes, that's what I like to think distinguishes the book. We tested (and re-tested) every recipe, and they're all just as good as our test kitchen can make them.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> PJ: Do you have a favorite apple for your pies? I've been using a combination of Macoun and Cortlands, but what are your favorites for pies?

<PJ Hamel> Judiaann, to tell you the truth I use Granny Smiths much of the time. They' re readily available, and I think they have the perfect balance of tart-sweetness, plus their final texture is neither too soft nor too crunchy. I also use Cortlands in season. Cortlands combined with Macouns are good if you prefer a softer pie, as Macouns have good flavor but totally turn to mush when you bake them; I wouldn't make a pie with all Macouns. I would try Grannies or Cortlands half and half with any of the more idiosyncratic varietals, like Jonagold, etc.

<TinaFCI> Would Gala apples work?

<PJ Hamel> Tina, Gala would be fine, but I think I'd still combine them with some Grannies for that tartness.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Yes, Granny Smiths are nice because you can get them year round, but with some many lovely varieties at the Farmer's Market, I'm having fun trying all of them.

<Lorrainesfav> PJ, I like my apple pie sweet, NOT tart. What is the best apple to use? I live in the South and am apple challenged here.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Lorraine, if you can get Macouns in your area, I'd recommend them because they're sweet but not too sweet. You can add a little extra sugar or brown sugar.

<PJ Hamel> Lorraine, you can get Granny Smiths, I'm sure (I was in Florida over the weekend and saw them at Publix!). I would use all Grannies and just increase the sugar. For a generous 3 pounds of apples (7-8 cups peeled, cored, and sliced), I would use 3/4 cup of sugar, but you might want to up it to a full cup.

<NhumiSD> How high of a temperature would you bake pies at?

<<PJ Hamel> Nhumi, I start at 425F for 15 minutes, then reduce to 375F for 45-55 minutes. Interestingly, aside from the outer rim of crust, it's really difficult to overbake a pie. I've baked pie for 2 1/2 hours at 350F, and it's fine (so long as I put a crust shield on).

<KathyD> Hi PJ. I am severely pie crust challenged. I also find that if I chill my pie crust dough too long it makes it tough to roll. Do you chill your dough before rolling, and if so, how long do you chill it?

<PJ Hamel> KathyD, do I know you from baking circle? Heck, I'm crust-challenged, too; many of us are, that's for sure. I think if you chill it JUST ENOUGH, that's the key, 30-40 minutes. Too much, then you need to let it sit at room temperature for awhile, till it's pliable.

<PJ Hamel> KathyD is the Queen of Home Baking. It's a pleasure to "see" you here!

<KathyD> Glad to hear about this on the Baking Circle. Thought I would drop in.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> PJ: Do you have a favorite recipe from the new King Arthur cookbook-something we MUST try?

<PJ Hamel>Judiaann, for pie, it would have to be "Mr. Washington's Cherry Pie"-so simple, yet so, so good. And, since I'm definitely a berry freak when it comes to pie, my "last supper" would include a slice of fresh raspberry pie I also recommend the Bumbleberry Pie. My very favorite recipe in the book, though, is my mom's Almond Puff Loaf. Easy, gorgeous, delicious-who could ask for anything more?!

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Ahhhh...they all sound so yummy. I love berry pies and cherry done right is a rare treat indeed.

<TinaFCI> It looks like a great book! It's nice to see recipes for crackers! No one makes homemade crackers these days! I can't wait to try them!

<PJ Hamel> Tina, I agree. While it's easy to buy a box of crackers, homemade crackers are a very different creature. And if you like to bake, it's just cool to realize you can make your own crackers.

<Deb> Tina, do make crackers. They are very easy, and guests are just knocked out by the idea. If you serve fancy cheeses with apples, pears, and grapes, you can match the cracker to the cheese, and your friends will be amazingly impressed.

<TinaFCI> I agree! You know that if you served them, they would disappear fast!

<Angela_PastryScoop> PJ: What will you be making for Thanksgiving...or do you get to take a break from the kitchen?

<PJ Hamel> Angela, I'm off to my brother-in-law's. Usually they tell me to bring a salad! But this year I told them what I'd bring which includes Pumpkin-Praline Pie (pumpkin pie with a layer of crushed pecans, brown sugar and butter on the bottom of the crust); Harvest Rolls (basically a white dinner roll with a bunch of "grainy" add-ins); cranberry sauce, including raspberries, apples, and orange marmalade; roasted parsnips; and baked turnips.

<Angela_PastryScoop> That sounds AWESOME!

<pielover> That's funny. If you were my dinner guest, I'd definitely expect something other than salad! I'm having dinner with 5 people, and they're expecting at least three different kinds of dessert!

<PJ Hamel>pielover, I always seem to get edged out of making a pie by the mothers-in-law, because they want to do it. You know how that is-discretion is the better part of valor, or whatever...I love Thanksgiving! What a great food holiday, as well as a wonderful reminder to us all to just say THANKS for a lot of different things.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> PJ: Is there a good recipe for a light, soft, dinner roll in your cookbook-something that can be made without too much fuss in a home oven?

<PJ Hamel> Judiaann, around here I'm known as the SWR Maven, as in Squishy White Rolls! I LOVE SWRs. Yes, there's a good recipe, and it includes a ton of shaping ideas, everything from cloverleafs to fantans to crescents.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Me too! Is that what they're called in the cookbook? Ha ha.

<PJ Hamel> Judiaann, no, I didn't quite dare. They're White Bread 101, shaped into rolls.

<pielover> Any recommendations for fruit-based desserts that aren't pie? I'm already making a couple of pies and would like to try something else that would still scream "thanksgiving."

<Deb> How about pumpkin cheesecake?

<PJ Hamel> Any fruit crisp is always good, and to me an apple crisp or pear crisp really screams HARVEST. Or how about a cobbler or buckle?

<cgenua> What is "buckle?"

<pielover> I do love buckle. Great idea.

<PJ Hamel> Pumpkin cheesecake is one of the most popular recipes the Baker's Catalogue has ever printed. It's actually a layer of cheesecake topped with a layer of pumpkin pie filling, a lovely two-tone dessert, and truly scrumptious. Buckle is a fruit-filled, streusel-topped coffeecake.

<cgenua> Is this recipe in the Baker's Companion ?

<PJ Hamel> cgenua, if you're asking about buckle, yes, it's in the Baker's Companion , as is Pumpkin Cheesecake Pie.

<NhumiSD> I like pecan pies, yet most of them are all so sweet for me. Can I just reduce the corn syrup, or will that take out the consistency of the pecan pie ?

<PJ Hamel> Nhumi, can't say for sure because I've never tried, but I think reducing the syrup would change the consistency. One thing you can do that seems to help is to use salted pecans. That salt helps cut the sweetness. I also like to use maple syrup and walnuts in place of corn syrup and pecans; it seems a little less cloyingly sweet.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> PJ: I've heard that using bleached vs. unbleached flour will affect the "spread" of cookies. Is this true?

<PJ Hamel> Judiaann, yes, that's true. The bleach in the flour changes the pH. I believe that cookies made with bleached flour will spread less.

<Judiaann_PastryScoop> Good to know. Thanks.

<pielover> Is there any difference in flavor or texture in breads made with dry yeast as opposed to fresh cake yeast?

<PJ Hamel> pielover, there supposedly is a difference in flavor; some folks think bread made with fresh yeast has a "yeastier" flavor. But since it's so hard to get good fresh yeast, we write all our recipes for instant yeast. Give it a try if you can find some-1 ounce fresh yeast translates to 1/4 ounce (typical packet) dry yeast.

<Deb> Could you please talk about the differences between starters-biga, poolish, sourdough, etc.?

<PJ Hamel> Whoo, Deb, that's a big question! They all accomplish the same thing, which is to grow yeast, and take advantage of yeast's byproducts: carbon dioxide, and most importantly, organic acids and alcohol, which lend wonderful flavor. Biga is an Italian starter; poolish is a French starter, which is usually quite liquid (as opposed to biga, which can be liquid or more dry). Sourdough starter is more involved, as it grows for a long time, can be used over and over, and needs to be fed.

<Deb> Does it make a difference to the end product if the starter used is dough-like or more liquid?

<PJ Hamel> Yes, supposedly the texture of the starter will mirror the texture of the final loaf, so if you use a polish - high-rising, full of big, wet holes - your bread will have lots of big holes, too. HOWEVER, this isn't always true.

<shari> Does sourdough starter ever go bad? I made some years ago and froze it. Can I simply defrost it and begin feeding it again?

<PJ Hamel> Shari, just defrost it, feed it, and give it a try. You've got nothing to lose. The only time you shouldn't use sourdough is if it has a pinkish liquid on top that smells bad That means some bad bacteria has gotten into it, and you should discard it.

<Deb> I've always used the sourdough starter that KA sells - quite sour, and I get a fine grained result usually. I keep it at the consistency of a thick pancake batter. I had assumed that the grain was due to my handling, not the starter?

<PJ Hamel> Deb, there are an incredible number of variables in sourdough baking. Yes, you can produce just about any texture from sourdough starter, depending on what you do with it.

<NhumiSD> I have a sourdough starter in my fridge for months now that has not been fed. Is it dead by now?

<PJ Hamel> Nhumi, not necessarily. Take it out, feed it, and see what happens. Pour off most of the dark liquid on top first.

<Murph> Is there any difference when using organic sugar in baking? It's a different color and seems to have a more course texture...

<PJ Hamel> Murph, organic sugar is probably turbinado or demerara, right? That means it's brown and coarser, and yes, it'll make a difference, both because it may measure differently and because the pH will be different. It'll be more acidic. That said, I'd just give it a try, as the pH might not be different enough to make a difference in the recipe.

<Deb> Murph, if you want a fine grained, highrising results, as for most cakes, you want the finest grain sugar.

<Murph> I'm really trying to use as many organic products as possible. Can I just process the organic sugar and still use the amount called for in a recipe ?

<PJ Hamel> Murph, depends what you're using it for. All I can say is, give it a try. Should be fine in cookies or pie, maybe not so good in cake or meringues.

<PJ Hamel> This has been WAY COOL! Thanks, everyone. Happy Thanksgiving!

<KathyD> Thanks for all the wonderful info today PJ Have a great Thanksgiving!

<Angela_PastryScoop> We expect all our PastryScoop.com members to be making perfect pies this week!

<PJ Hamel> KathyD, I see your "smiling face"-enjoy!

<Lorrainesfav> Thank you for letting us get a little closer to you at King Arthur Flour.

<PJ Hamel> Lorraine, you can get a lot closer, come on up to Vermont! The weather's fine (so far)!

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